Strength and Conditioning

[Mass Haas]

Updated comments from Brent Brewer this week

NOTE: This article led to a new take on the discussion from the original thread, so it's been split here, with the conversation continuing below.

[greeg35]

You don't lift weights in baseball? That doesn't sound right...

[TheCrew07]

You don't lift weights in baseball? That doesn't sound right...

I've been trying to educate people that there isn't anywhere near as much "development" in the minor leagues as they think there is. It's still basically a trial by fire system... play 500ish games and hopefully you figure out what it takes to be a player on your own by the team you reach the bigs. Most repetitions the players are getting are completely worthless because they are just going through the motions doing what they've always done, I've watched them take infield/outfield before the games. It's more a warm up procedure than it is "practice", and I'd honestly get just as bored working on the same things over and over like they do. My high school coach was notorious for having 1.5 hours of infield practice followed by batting practice, it was the same routine every day as much as I still love to compete, I'd get bored of it. We'd get so bored in the outfield we'd just turn around and watch the girls run track... They need a schedule that breaks up each day differently focus on something different at each position every single day, pull players aside and give them individual skill work I've coached enough to know that vast majority of the time if a kid isn't getting it right in individual group work, the light switch doesn't magically go on when we go team or on game day.

The MiLB teams don't have the facilities nor are there enough coaches to give players daily individual instruction. Look at the T-Rats, they had to skip batting practice for some time just to get the extra defensive work they required, and WI was still a horrible defensive team. There are only so many coaching hours in the day... The players probably get some lighter type "conditioning" lifting when they are on a home stand, but I highly doubt they do anything when on the road. What kid can do it on their own? Maybe the players in the top 4-5 rounds if they are motivated enough? The rest get bye on nothing, the financial woes of the kids in the minors have been well documented on this forum, they simply just don't have the money to even eat properly, much less build muscle, and stay healthy.

From the outside looking in it looks like baseball teams and many fans still haven't figured it out. The Pirates newish regime has been roundly criticized for trying to build their future and not spending money on MLB talent, but what's more important to a team than to development its own talent? Furthermore no team is devoting enough resources to truly develop their talent to it's fullest, not a single team. There isn't the money behind the minor league system to do anything more than they already are... it's not a question of good coaching, I think the Brewers have some excellent coaches in the system, it's a question of time and resources.

The coaches don't have the time and the players don't have the resources, it's as simple as that. Some organizations have done a better job recently trying to develop the athlete and the baseball player at the same time, but most teams do not. Look at the Brewers, they should be fighting tooth and nail to keep Escobar out of winter league and should put him to work developing his frame and his athleticism, giving his mind a mental break from baseball. However my gut feeling tells me it's the exact opposite and I don't believe the organization even has a consistent philosophy on the subject. Playing baseball all year round isn't going to make Esky a better baseball player any faster... you can only grow so much facing inferior competition.

This has been a very sore subject with me for a long time. If the Brewers are worried about investing in the MiLB facilities and then losing the franchise and having to start over, then they should just buy the franchises and commit the resources to give the players what they need. The Brewers cannot afford to spend money on premier MLB talent, so they had better do their best to develop as much talent as possible and retain talent the impact as long as possible before FA, our impact talent should never reach arbitration as long as the player is healthy and performing. There's much better value spending an extra 3-4 million per year on the entire minor league system than there is spending that money on some washed up 0 WAR relief pitcher. Baseball is notorious for having poorly conditioned athletes, the system is as much to blame as the players themselves, it's time for a change in philosophy, and while some teams have begun moving in this direction, let's just say I'm not holding my breath waiting on the Brewers. I would be shocked if something changed with Melvin and Nichols at the helm.

[greeg35]

That is disheartening if it is even partially accurate....we lifted for baseball in high school. Granted it was paired with the football lifting as much as anything; but for me it made a big difference in performance (from bad to not as bad http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif ). I totally agree on the wasted time in winter ball too. Having coached HS basketball, I would liken it to having kids play AAU, i.e. waste of time compared to good strength and conditioning participation.

Either way, it seems like implementing an in and off season lifting program would be a relatively simple and easy way to get a much bigger return on a team's investment in the minor league system....heck, just rent the weight room at a local high school or college for a couple of hours a day.

[Mass Haas]

Each and every Brewer affiliate is assigned both a season-long athletic trainer and season-long strength & conditioning coach, with organizational coordinators in both areas as well. Not sure if that's the norm across baseball, but that's still fairly impressive.

 

I would imagine that both the Maryvale site and Brevard's Space Coast (Nationals' spring training) have fully-functional and close to if not state-of-the-art weight training facilities available. Perhaps Wisconsin's is more than adequate (to be honest, don't know), and it's hard to imagine proper facilities in Nashville, Huntsville, and Helena, although their coaches do mention "the gym".

 

The trainers and coaches prepare off-seaon individualized plans for the players and check in during the off-season via phone as well. Obviously, the players need to have self-discipline in the off-season.

 

For the life of me, I just can't imagine why the Brewers (and they're not alone in baseball) do not work with their affiliate partners, and yes, even visiting stadiums on the road (this could all be coordinated and costs shared with other organizations) to provide at least two of the players' meals each and every day. Proper meals -- not the PB&J spreads we read about, but lean meats, salad bars, fruit-based desserts, etc. Does the team bus pull into McDonald's off the freeway more often than not, or places where there are a variety of proper choices?

 

Maybe the Brewers do a better job than we give them credit for, it would be nice to hear even more about the whole process than has been made available thus far. But we do get some insights --

 

Here's a previously-linked audio interview with the Huntsville training and strength staff, worth your while.

 

Also, this:

July 9 - Nashville Audio Chat with Strength and Conditioning Coach Andrew Emmick -- Subway, Quiznos, supplement shakes mentioned...

 

So while I can understand some of the frustrations that TC07 expresses, I think we just need to be careful that these aspects are not just black holes in the organization. They are addressed to some degree, but obviously not ideally.

[homer]

My personal opinion is that baseball players are best served with core work (exercise ball, stretching, etc.) than they are with dumbbells and bench press. But there should be a difference in workout routine between pitchers and position players. Lifting weights can be detrimental to your flexibility in the upper body. Pitchers for example should never bulk up their shoulders. It will kill the speed on your fastball because you can't torque your shoulder as much. Same thing will happen to the arms of position players but obviously some guys don't care about that (DH, 1st base, and guys who already had bad arms). So bulking up the upper body in baseball isn't always a good idea. You hear about Braun working on his core all the time and that makes perfect sense since that's where your power comes from - not your biceps.You can improve your core with minimal equipment - exercise ball, some small dumbbells, yoga mat, and those stretchy cord things. I realize the kids in the minors aren't given jack for per diem but it's on them to stay in shape. You can buy all the equipment I mentioned earlier for under $200 (and probably less if you get it used). Now if the Brewers aren't showing them or telling them how to use it or not telling them what they need to do to become a better player then shame on them.

[TheCrew07]

I should have mentioned that I know the Brewer's farm teams have pretty decent strength & conditioning coaches, most of them have been interviewed over the last 2 seasons., In fact I remember an interview from 2 years ago where the coach in Helena praised Bucci for his excellent work ethic, Nick was self motivated doing his own daily routine. I do like the band work and the movement stretching most everyone is doing now from the big leagues down through rookie ball. It's easy to get form down using the bands, and the bands come with different levels of resistance so there should be a progression with the bands as well. As homer noted, the bands while not as cheap as you would think, are relatively inexpensive for a professional organization.

 

Lawrie talked about getting some light lifting on certain days when he was in Appleton 2 seasons ago as well, though a quick google didn't come up with anything, then again maybe it was this season... all of the interviews start to run together after a while. I know they lift some when they at are home, but it didn't seem like much, Brewer's comments didn't make it seem like it was much, and I have a hard time believing every stadium has the same facilities, it would be nice to know from an insider exactly what happens strength and conditioning wise with these young men.

 

I didn't mean to suggest that pitchers and position players should have the same work out regime, because I don't believe that's true. I think pitchers should be focusing mostly on core/endurance while position players should be focusing on the entire package. Every major muscle group is activated during a baseball swing, the forearms and wrists are just as import as the hips to a swing, and there's nothing wrong with being quicker/more agile in the field. Putting on muscle weight enhances one's natural gifts when done properly, it doesn't slow players down and remove nimbleness like conventional wisdom would seem to suggest. Baseball appears to be a very laid back sport, but it's at core is a fast twitch muscle game, with flurries of activity in very short windows of time. While I think a guy like Esky is leaving production on table do I expect him hit 20 HR a year? No, that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about preparing the body to be able to last through 150 games and getting the most out of one's natural gifts.

 

There is a time a issue here as well... the common belief has always been that you shouldn't work out on a game day... if that's true how can a relief pitcher ever plan a workout? Over last couple of years I've sat through some interesting presentations that suggest light work (by light work I'm talking low weight repetitions/core work/plyos) X hours before a game actually can put the body in a peak performance state. I really don't believe that lifting would adversely affect position players on the field, but I'm quite sold on the concept yet for pitchers, but am I intrigued by the idea. My father is big on the idea, but I missed the guy that talked about it this year, I was in listening to the Olympic trainer talk about conditioning and workout recovery.

 

As far as the field work thing goes... like I said previously I have a football mentality towards fundamentals.. You work the hell out of them in individuals getting each young man as many perfect repetitions as possible, then you put some groups together for inside run/pass skele where they can work on specific skills in a controlled environment, then you go to team and put it all together. I'm not sure how a MiLB coaching staff can do that... Using the T-Rats as an example, how does Chris Hook get every pitcher individual bullpen work a couple of time a week? It's certainly easier to do with the starters who actually have side sessions than the relievers, but there's only one of him... MLB teams have a 2 coaches for roughly the same number of players... On the position player side Erickson and Isom have to get the IF and OF through their daily work and get all of their BP done while splitting time with another team most every single day. How do they have time for individual instruction when every player needs daily work when they have a relatively short time frame to work in?

 

I completely agree with Mass that it shouldn't be very difficult for the organizations to provide 2 good meals for the players every single day, athletic performance starts with nutrition and it's appalling how little the organizations care about this about stuff. We know the coaches do, it comes through in just about every interview, but the resources just haven't been devoted to make this happen.

[jerichoholicninja]

If anyone read Matt McCulley's (I think that was his name) book, he says that in the minors players are required to lift certain days during the week during a homestand. If they don't they are fined. I think they also got one meal served before each game. It didn't seem like the coaches cared too much or at least put much effort into diet, nutrition and exercise.

[twobrewers]

Does anyone think baseball might benefit from less minor league teams?

 

MLB teams can only expand so many resources at each level. The truth is, about 80% of the players at each level are pretty much gap fillers. It doesn't make sense for the organization to spend a lot of money or resources on Donovan Hand. It would make a ton of sense to spend a lot of money and resources on Mark Rogers and Jeremy Jeffress. But when your top 10 players are allocated to 4 different teams - how do you spread out your coaches and resources?

 

If Odorizzi isn't receiving the best possible coaching, nutrition and conditioning possible in Class A Wisconsin, I would rather have him learning from better resources (presumably harder level) and failing at first. Maybe the Brewers should just have one affiliate (Double A - Huntsville) that has the best coaching and state of the art resources where all of the top prospects are assigned? Sure the younger prospects might fail a little at first - but I would rather have them learning from the best and failing at first than succeeding while developing bad habits.

[Invader3K]

Does anyone think baseball might benefit from less minor league teams?

 

I've wondered this for quite a while. Why is it necessary to have two different rookie levels (if you count Arizona) and two different single-A levels, for instance? Just seems like two much incremental difference in the affiliates. I'm sure there is some good reason things are structured that way, but it seems excessive to me.

[dadofandrew]

Whitey Herzog said they should have AA and AAA teams and have all the rest in an extended spring training like atmosphere. Never happen because that would leave a lot of markets like Appleton without baseball.

 

I think most of the fuss about diet/nutrition is overstated...guys like Braun, Prince, Weeks, and so on are going to rise to the top, no matter how they eat.

[kramnoj]

Elite players will for the most part make it, but what about the other players?

 

How much would it really cost to add one or two coaches to each minor league affiliate so that teams can actually work on skills during the season? If facilities aren't sufficient, how much would it really cost to build a decent gym for a couple dozen guys to use?

 

Does it benefit players to have the winter off entirely? Could certain players benefit from living in Arizona over the winter, and work out in controlled conditions, and work on skills with coaches?

 

I think it would be an interesting experiment for a team to build a full service facility at their ST that would include an apartment complex/dorm with a cafeteria, a nutritionist, full workout facility with team trainers staffed over the winter and team coaches that would provide coaching over the winter.

 

All players in the system would be invited to live there during the off-season. Room and board are free as long as they participate in the program. You could even have the players have part time jobs for pay doing things a facility needs, like maintenance, groundskeeping, cleaning, cafeteria work, etc.

 

I think there could be a decent return with that investment in improving players within the system, so that bench players could be filled within the system and improving the quality of depth in the minor leagues as well.

[TheCrew07]

I think most of the fuss about diet/nutrition is overstated...guys like Braun, Prince, Weeks, and so on are going to rise to the top, no matter how they eat.

Ha... and while all of those players have elite ability, even for professionals, all of them were very poor defensively when they got to Milwaukee. This is about getting more well rounded and hence more valuable players during the limited time frame we'll have the players they develop. Loosing 3 years to develop players in Milwaukee isn't a solid plan in my opinion

As for the comment about diet I'm not even going to waste the time debating the merits of proper nutrition with you. Sure you can eat anything just to get through the day, but you're not going to build muscle eating just anything, that's just not how it works. This isn't really about the elite players who were drafted high and therefore don't exactly have to go through the same struggles as players drafted later in the draft, it's apples and oranges money wise, and you already know this.

It would appear that you're being contrary for the sake of being contrary again.

[dadofandrew]

In all 3 cases, their offense rushed them to the big leagues. Not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand.

 

Again, players do not magically get better by eating lean meats and fruit. Some will be responsible, some will not. Some make it, most will not. Feeding them all healthy and hoping to get better baseball from them, seems overly optimistic at best. Considering the 30 teams don't do it, and yet my view is being called "contrary" sums it up for me.

 

I'd love to find cheap ways to improve the minors, but adding some chicken and veggies to the diet of guys who can't hit...I don't see it having much success.

 

My idea of adding a team in the NY-P league, stocking it with college seniors who'll sign for $5-10K, and letting most of them fail naturally, but adding a few prospects for about $250K per yeartotal is an idea I'd like to see someone try, that I have to believe would yield far more results.

[TooLiveBrew]

Again, players do not magically get better by eating lean meats and fruit.

 

Yeah, you can easily put on muscle by eating Doritos & candy bars

[filthyfrog]

I think most of the fuss about diet/nutrition is overstated...guys like

Braun, Prince, Weeks, and so on are going to rise to the top, no matter

how they eat.

I know he's a special case, but I don't think you can include Prince in that statement, since he weighed 300 lbs in high school and had to hire a personal nutritionist to slim down. He very nearly did eat himself out of baseball.

[TheCrew07]

Al you're entirely missing the point...

 

Sure, with things the way the way they are, none of this matters. The Brewers are just doing what every other organization is doing... some token lifting. The problem is that they aren't getting the return on their limited investment in the activity because the players aren't eating properly, they may as well not even lift at all to be honest. It's no different than practicing some skill wrong, it doesn't matter how many times you do it if you're doing it wrong.

 

You remind of me of parents I have to deal with every year that tell me it's too much trouble for their kids to make it early mornings and lift/off season condition, but they are the first parents to complain about a lack of playing time for their young men when kids who were always less talented and behind them on the depth chart since pop warner pass them up because they work harder to get better. I want the Brewers to look to maximize every single aspect of the organization, and since they aren't able to compete dollar for dollar with the big boys for talent, I want them to look to maximize their potential in other areas of the organization, which they haven't done. They've made changes with their pitching philosophies, but so has pretty much every organization. Looking around baseball what are the Brewers doing that other teams aren't? It looks to me like they are simply doing what they've always done. Why not try to add more coaches and see what happens? Maybe it won't matter, but what if it does?

 

Fruthermore Weeks and Braun weren't rushed, they were top 5 picks coming out of college, those guys don't spend years in the minors. What about the fact that Fielder couldn't even do the basic 1B fundamental consistently and stretch to the location of the throw when he came up? How many times did he stretch towards the infielder prior to throw and let a ball get through him? What about Gamel? He's not been rushed... or Escobar who wasn't rushed at all? To claim these players were rushed because of their bats is a disservice to the reality of the situation, the organization knew Weeks and Braun were going to be pushed when they were drafted. How much extra work did they get knowing they were on a shorter schedule to the bigs? Defense hasn't been an organizational priority, it's that simple.

 

What about when these guys get to the majors? When I'm paying someone to produce at the big league level I'd like to be maximizing their potential and production. I'm not into paying players to learn how to play defense at the major league level, and it's impossible to perform when you aren't healthy enough to play. You don't believe if Casey dropped 15 lbs of fat and added 10lbs of muscle there's a chance he'd be a better defender, a better hitter, and possibly all around better baseball player. I'd rather the organization went out of it's way to prepare these guys in every aspect of the game because I want the best possible team out there on the field. You're talking about trying to identify more diamonds in the rough, I'm talking maximizing the potential of the entire organization by giving our players every possible legal advantage.

[igor67]

Frankly this seems like a very simple advantage to be gained. Imagine how much benefit a good strength program might have been to a marginal guy like Tony Gwynn jr. He didn't need much power, but add a few HRs, and say 5-10 doubles and he gets over that hump to where he's a leadoff weapon with plus defense. Now maybe he was already doing enough to maximize on his own, but it seems likely there are a number of guys who could be substantially benefiting (Escobar comes to mind). My guess is that most clubs attitude towards lifting is still influenced by the Canseco steroid wave and it is all associated with swing for the fences with raw power, and not enough appreciation for speed gains due to weight loss or just generally trying to build more lean muscle tone.

[Invader3K]

You would think by the time these guys hit the minors, they would have enough basic background in exercise and nutrition to get on the right path themselves.

[jerichoholicninja]

You would think by the time these guys hit the minors, they would have enough basic background in exercise and nutrition to get on the right path themselves.

Probably not. 90-95% of pros make it because of their natural talent and college and especially high school coaches aren't going to try and mess with their best players.

[Mass Haas]

Certainly relevant to this conversation -- John Steinmiller

[homer]

Nice article, Mass.

[Mass Haas]

Josh Seligman, 35, replaces Chris Joyner. He spent the last four years as Minor League strength and conditioning coordinator with the Marlins. He earned his bachelor's degree in sports medicine from Willamette University in 1998, and his master's degree in nutritional sciences from the University of Hawaii in 2004.

Just pointing out that the Brewers went outside of the organization with their new major league hire. The Brewers' current Strength & Conditioning Coordinator is Jeff Mester, you hear the interviews we linked to in this thread, and of course, those folks hope for internal hires and the subsequent chain of command promotions.

The new guy

[thebruce44]

So let me get this straight. Professional baseball players in the minor leagues have less coordination and emphasis placed on strength, conditioning, and nutrition than D-1 athletes or Texas highschool football players? And we are debating if there is an advantage to be had there?