job-seeker contacts/advice

[MrTPlush]

I always love when massive companies can't even bother with automated emails to just mass tell applicants they aren't moving on in the process. Some do, but many don't.

 

I always feel you can learn a lot about how working for a company will be simply on the application process. How the job is posted, what is in the job posting, and how interviews are. Slow interview process with a million steps? Probably a good sign how trying to submit leave etc. is going to be.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I always love when massive companies can't even bother with automated emails to just mass tell applicants they aren't moving on in the process. Some do, but many don't.

 

I always feel you can learn a lot about how working for a company will be simply on the application process. How the job is posted, what is in the job posting, and how interviews are. Slow interview process with a million steps? Probably a good sign how trying to submit leave etc. is going to be.

 

Exactly. And I remember every single company that had a person CALL me to tell I wasn't selected. Because I can fit them on one hand.

[CheezWizHed]

You guys are taking this in a way I never intended it to be. This has nothing to do with evil corporate America or "fat cats that I despise." It is simply the reality of the situation and a set of conditions that employers fostered for decades.

They got a better offer and don't want to bother with pleasantries. You know, sort of exactly what employers have done for 40 years. Who cares about screwing corporate America. They can do what they want. My whole point is that employers created this dynamic. They are to blame, so I laugh at them crying about it now.

 

I'm just reading what you posted.

 

My greater point was that hiring managers, HR, recruiters... sometimes people are jerks, but more often, we are understaffed and trying to do our best. It is easy to be upset with a faceless representative of corporate America. Harder when it is Joe next door that just got busy and made a mistake.

 

If you happen to run into a jerk, being a jerk... it doesn't help to be a jerk to the next person just because the way you were treated before. Just be glad the jerk didn't hire you.

 

And I dunno why you're telling me it isn't possible. I've witnessed hundreds of people get fired from my company without notice on the same afternoon, more than once. Sure it's a "layoff," I don't think the people losing their job care much about the semantics.

 

You do realize firing and layoffs are two very different activities. Yes, the person at the end of the day is no longer employed, but the reasons are very different. The check and balance to firing/laying off are lawsuits. And companies (especially corporations) are generally very careful about lawsuits.

 

That is why an individual firing is handled so carefully. Your first example was someone coming in late to work one time and getting fired. My experience is that you need to document a long history of that problem, give them training and opportunity to change, and even have them acknowledge the problem before HR/Legal will allow a firing to happen.

 

For a layoff, the "bar" is certainly lower, but the company is also careful to show financial reasons (loss of a contract, losing sales, etc..) as the driver for laying people off. In short, they want proof to show that the decision wasn't one against the individual but financial reasons.

[logan82]

I have unfortunately also encountered the HR attitude that CheezWhiz describes. I have helped do enough hiring that I do appreciate the amount of time it takes, but the way that evolves in certain HR circles toward being terrified of meritless employment lawsuits. I suspect the practical differences in how companies act are also heavily influenced by the average education level of their employees.

This is what I was thinking too. It is easier to just not reply if you are not hiring someone than deal with a possible discrimination lawsuit. You could be dealing with a very small population of people depending on the professional field.

 

The worst to deal with are contracting companies. They are downright predatory.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm not going to quote because it's too much text but I'm confused as to why you quoted two blocks of text and insinuated they contradict each other when they don't at all.

 

Anyway, firing and layoffs are different, sure, but usually firing is very easily justified. Layoffs are pretty often comical and ambiguous. After living though several at F500s, there is no effort made to discern who's worth keeping and who isn't in a layoff. Really valuable guy everyone loves? Nah, he's in the wrong department, get rid of em. I could go on but I'd be here all night. And again, I'll repeat that I've never been laid off. So this isn't some vendetta.

[CheezWizHed]

I'm not going to quote because it's too much text but I'm confused as to why you quoted two blocks of text and insinuated they contradict each other when they don't at all.

 

Anyway, firing and layoffs are different, sure, but usually firing is very easily justified. Layoffs are pretty often comical and ambiguous. After living though several at F500s, there is no effort made to discern who's worth keeping and who isn't in a layoff. Really valuable guy everyone loves? Nah, he's in the wrong department, get rid of em. I could go on but I'd be here all night. And again, I'll repeat that I've never been laid off. So this isn't some vendetta.

 

My experience is that firing is not easily justified unless you break one of the big rules (discrimination, assault, being drunk, etc..). Just firing someone due to poor performance, showing up late, etc... is not easy in a salaried position. Hourly might be different as I don't have as much experience there.

 

Yes, I'd agree layoffs are often silly. But that is the main difference between a layoff and a firing. Layoffs are not about the person or their performance, but about the business. Firings are about the person and you normally need very good documented proof before firing someone (i.e. not showing up for work late once).

[nodakfan17]

In my experience, a company is more likely to let go of middling performers through ‘re-organization.’ At least that typically comes with severance pay.

 

Layoffs, in my mind, are more large scale in nature, whereas a re-org is more strategic and intended to prune underperforming leaders or teams from the company tree. Sometimes good performers can get caught up in a re-org if their boss has underperformed, but good senior managers will find ways to hang on to productive employees.

[jerichoholicninja]

Applied for a job on November 12. I can't see how I don't at least get an interview for this job. Figured I would be contacted for an interview Thanksgiving week or the week after. Emailed them on Monday asking if the position was still open and no response. With all the talk about how "hot" the job market is supposed to be I figured this would be a rather quick process and not weeks of drown out ghosting like it was 5-10 years ago when I last looked for a job.

[jerichoholicninja]

After using all 5 of my degrees of Kevin Bacon I finally found a contact there. Turns out they filled the position. A week later and they still haven't responded to my email asking if the position was open. Extremely frustrated by the lack of communication and dumbfounded that I didn't even get an interview.

[nate82]

After using all 5 of my degrees of Kevin Bacon I finally found a contact there. Turns out they filled the position. A week later and they still haven't responded to my email asking if the position was open. Extremely frustrated by the lack of communication and dumbfounded that I didn't even get an interview.

 

You probably checked to many boxes on what they wanted or not enough take your pick. If it was a corporate job they are probably looking for someone who is overly experienced or not experienced at all even though they probably had something like 3-5 years of experience required. Corporations are still treating everyone like it is 2008 when there wasn't a shortage in labor and they could get people who were overqualified but yet pay them the same rate as someone who has no experience.

 

The tables have flipped now but the large corporate jobs are struggling to change their ways as they are just stuck in 2008 still. I can't decide what is worse in corporate America is it IT or is it HR. They are both bad but I think corporate HR is over taking corporate IT here in uselessness.

[jerichoholicninja]

After using all 5 of my degrees of Kevin Bacon I finally found a contact there. Turns out they filled the position. A week later and they still haven't responded to my email asking if the position was open. Extremely frustrated by the lack of communication and dumbfounded that I didn't even get an interview.

 

You probably checked to many boxes on what they wanted or not enough take your pick. If it was a corporate job they are probably looking for someone who is overly experienced or not experienced at all even though they probably had something like 3-5 years of experience required. Corporations are still treating everyone like it is 2008 when there wasn't a shortage in labor and they could get people who were overqualified but yet pay them the same rate as someone who has no experience.

 

The tables have flipped now but the large corporate jobs are struggling to change their ways as they are just stuck in 2008 still. I can't decide what is worse in corporate America is it IT or is it HR. They are both bad but I think corporate HR is over taking corporate IT here in uselessness.

 

It wasn't a corporate job at all. It was with a museum and they were looking for specific experience that I have that I can't believe many people in the area have. And this was not a job someone would relocate for. The only two "red flags" I can see are that my degree isn't in the area they're looking for (but my work experience in the field should trump that) and that I am probably over qualified for what they are looking for. But I fail to see how either of those things should take me out of the running.

[GAME05]

Sounds to me like they had someone picked for the job already but just had to do the formality of posting the job opening, and so they paid about no attention to the other applicants. My first interview for the career I'm in now was like that--before any questions were asked the lead interviewer congratulated me for making it to the interview round.

[CheezWizHed]

Sounds to me like they had someone picked for the job already but just had to do the formality of posting the job opening, and so they paid about no attention to the other applicants. My first interview for the career I'm in now was like that--before any questions were asked the lead interviewer congratulated me for making it to the interview round.

 

+1 This is pretty common place, unfortunately.

 

We had a weird change for recruiting interns this year and they wouldn't allow me to interview for my own intern. Our business chose people in the company to go recruit at certain college events and my intern was offered a job on the spot. I asked what they were doing with the public posting and they said they weren't allowed to consider anyone that applied - only through the recruiting events. At best, it seems border-line legal, but certainly not ethical.

[MrTPlush]

that I am probably over qualified for what they are looking for. But I fail to see how either of those things should take me out of the running.

 

It certainly does happen where they will throw someone out for this...even before an interview. They either assume you are going to ask for too much or they are worried you won't stay around for long.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

that I am probably over qualified for what they are looking for. But I fail to see how either of those things should take me out of the running.

 

It certainly does happen where they will throw someone out for this...even before an interview. They either assume you are going to ask for too much or they are worried you won't stay around for long.

 

I went to an interview last week just to humor myself I guess and I'm almost certain there will be an offer this week, as they contacted me for references on Friday. I don't think I've ever had that happen and not had an offer. The work was more engaging than what I'm doing and the operation much smaller, but now but I have a feeling it will come in way low, and I'd have to give up a bunch of cushy large-company benefits that I just don't think I'm ready to lose. I mentioned early on in the process I was ok with a lateral compensation move, but as things moved along and the reality of that decision set in, I chickened out a bit. I'd still do something for less $$, but this is also longer commute, likely loss of some PTO (currently have 5 weeks), some benefits, matching % is less, etc. It all starts to add up.

[CheezWizHed]

Brewer Development Scout position open: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/job-posting-milwaukee-brewers-development-scout/

 

[sarcasm]For all of you that know so much better how to do things than our front office, now is the time to put up or shut up![/sarcasm]

[nodakfan17]

Brewer Development Scout position open: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/job-posting-milwaukee-brewers-development-scout/

 

[sarcasm]For all of you that know so much better how to do things than our front office, now is the time to put up or shut up![/sarcasm]

I’m surprised they post this. I figured you just had to know somebody.

[nodakfan17]

I’m getting very close to testing the job market. I’ve been with my current employer for nearly 11 years, but have noticed a gradual decline in my job satisfaction over the past 2 years (basically since COVID). I’ve lost two great mentors that were forced into early retirement by serious health issues. My current manager is a decent person, but we’re not destined to work together long term. I’ve attempted to improve our work relationship with frequent and honest dialogue (a good growth opportunity for me), but have had limited success. I promised myself back in August that I’d give it 6 months and re-evaluate. Our annual bonuses are paid around March 15, so that leaves about 6 weeks to turn things around. I’ll probably start laying the groundwork for my exit (updating resume, checking job postings, etc.) so I’m ready to apply, if necessary.

 

Any tips on how to get started from those who have navigated this scene recently? I’ve spent most of my working life at this company and they’ve always treated me pretty well. I feel a little lost right now.

[zurch1818]

I feel I'm in the same place you are now (9.5 years in)...but without the dropoff in satisfaction in the last 2 years. I have thought about what I would do if your situation happened to me and I'd probably feel the same way.

 

I have told myself if the company (especially the culture) went downhill, I would look to jump ship. Just because the company treated me fairly in the past does not mean they deserve my current loyalty. The part that is scary thinking about is the grass isn't always greener and trying to chase the largest pay may actually make the situation worse. Culture is so important to me...and so difficult for me to pick up on in an interview.

 

When I started (first job using my degree after college), I was the third person on our team. Seven months in, the two people that were in the group when I started left. Luckily we hired another stamping engineer and another junior engineer right at about the time those two people left. It was awkward when I was only 7 months in and being responsible for training the new employees. It was especially even more awkward when I was training my superior...the one in charge of reviewing my work. Luckily, I was about to mold a lot of the culture of our group at that point. Now I'm the leader of this team of 7 others.

 

If the owners decided to start demanding quantity of projects at the cost of quality, there is no doubt that I would push back...and if that didn't work, I would definitely look for other opportunities. Our company has grown quite a bit since I started, so I'd be shocked if something like this won't happen in the future. It seems the bigger the companies get, the more you feel like a number and less like family.

 

Good luck on whatever you decide to do. Just remember that you should stay for you...not the company. If you feel you have been baited and switched, I'd recommend discussing with them (obviously after the bonus kicks in) and then look to leave if you don't pick up any chance of changing.

[OldHeidelberg]

I quit my job of 10 years at the end of December. I just realized the job stress was making me unhappy and affecting me even in my time off and finally pulled the plug on it. I am in IT and the job market is amazing right now, it's unbelievable the difference remote work has had on the number of opportunities that are out there when you used to be largely bound to your local area. I am taking my time and looking for something that I know I will be happy in rather than focused on pay, I guess part of getting older for me is realizing money isn't everything.

[owbc]

I’m getting very close to testing the job market. I’ve been with my current employer for nearly 11 years, but have noticed a gradual decline in my job satisfaction over the past 2 years (basically since COVID). I’ve lost two great mentors that were forced into early retirement by serious health issues. My current manager is a decent person, but we’re not destined to work together long term. I’ve attempted to improve our work relationship with frequent and honest dialogue (a good growth opportunity for me), but have had limited success. I promised myself back in August that I’d give it 6 months and re-evaluate. Our annual bonuses are paid around March 15, so that leaves about 6 weeks to turn things around. I’ll probably start laying the groundwork for my exit (updating resume, checking job postings, etc.) so I’m ready to apply, if necessary.

 

Any tips on how to get started from those who have navigated this scene recently? I’ve spent most of my working life at this company and they’ve always treated me pretty well. I feel a little lost right now.

 

These days it is very easy to apply to jobs. I did my search via LinkedIn. You can get most of the application fields to autofill. I doubt I spent more than 3 or 4 minutes applying to what is now my current job. You can also set your status on LinkedIn to actively searching and the recruiters will find you.

 

My view is that I’m always job hunting. You never know when a better opportunity is going to present itself, and you basically need to have other offers in order to negotiate compensation, even if you are staying at your current role.

[nodakfan17]

I don’t even have LinkedIn. My last serious job search was in 2011.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I find Indeed superior to anything else. Especially recently they seem to be getting employers away from applying on their own websites and making them accept resume drops and brief applications. It's possible to apply to 20 jobs in 10 minutes. You can also just a post a resume there and recruiters will find you. I get a lot of callbacks even when I'm not looking.

 

LinkedIn will be more useful in some fields than others. I would say that any objective field of work will do better on LinkedIn. If you're a programmer that knows these specific XYZ languages and have it on your page, you will be inundated by recruiters without doing a lick of work.

 

If it's a more subjective field like general marketing, then LinkedIn is just a bunch of people blowing self-promotional hot air. It's another thing that was distinctive in 2007 but now everyone has one so it's useless. Just friends writing endorsements for each other and people exaggerating their duties.

[OldHeidelberg]

I find Indeed superior to anything else. Especially recently they seem to be getting employers away from applying on their own websites and making them accept resume drops and brief applications. It's possible to apply to 20 jobs in 10 minutes. You can also just a post a resume there and recruiters will find you. I get a lot of callbacks even when I'm not looking.

 

 

I hadn't realized it until you posted this but yes Indeed seems much easier to apply than the last time I tested the market a few years ago. It's so annoying to spend 15 minutes on a detailed application before you even know if there will be interest in you. Now like you say every morning I have a bunch of emails from employers and I can quickly submit my resume/contact info if I am interested. Yesterday I applied for a job through a local online newspaper and am now apparently on ziprecruiter as well, I get emails from there too but not sure yet how good it is yet.

[nate82]

I only use ZipRecruiter, Indeed and LinkedIn. Mostly it is Indeed and ZipRecruiter as they are far easier to search for things on those two sites. LinkedIn can be a pain to look for jobs and apparently Microsoft decided to turn it into another social media site instead of what it was. It is still good but I use Indeed and ZipRecruiter more. LinkedIn is still good for networking but I barely use it for finding a job.

 

ZipRecruiter is nice because it has either an estimate of what the job will pay or the range from the company they are willing to pay. I prefer applying on Indeed as it is simple and fairly easy to apply to jobs there. ZipRecruiter can sometimes show you jobs that are available but will sometimes send you to Indeed, LinkedIn or some other random site to apply to the job which is very annoying.