Should the Brewers retire Ben Sheets number? (when he retires)

[nate82]

Simple question to answer. After reading over the Hoffman thread on whether the Brewers should or shouldn't retire Hoffman's number it got me to think about a Ben Sheets. When Sheets retires should the Brewers retire his number? I would have to go with yes and although Sheets isn't a hall of fame player he is and was the greatest pitcher the Brewers ever had on the team for more than a few months.

 

Anyone else feel that Sheets number should be retired when he retires?

[trwi7]

No. I love Sheets, but just no.

 

There is no Brewer who played with the team from the mid 90s to mid 2000s that is worthy of having their number retired. The question you're asking is almost like asking if the Reds should retire Aaron Harang's number when he retires.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Sheets isn't even the best Brewer to ever wear #15. Cecil Cooper is. So no, not happening. Unless they do it in honor of both players, which won't happen.

[dlk9s]

Gorman has his Grill. They should make the Ben Sheets Comedy Club.

[Invader3K]

They should re-name the medical station at Miller Park in his honor.

[JimH5]

Doubtful he'd be able to make it all the way through the ceremony without tweaking his smiling muscle.

 

They can retire Sheets' number if he comes back as pitching coach for 15 years and leads the staff to a World Series. Until then, no chance.

[hawing]

They can retire Sheets' number if he comes back as pitching coach for 15 years and leads the staff to a World Series. Until then, no chance.

Not to be greedy, but if he's pitching coach for 15 years, I hope they get to more than one World Series. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

I could see Ben joining the Walk of Fame honorees, but that would be about it.

[JohnBriggs12]

Simple question to answer. After reading over the Hoffman thread on whether the Brewers should or shouldn't retire Hoffman's number it got me to think about a Ben Sheets. When Sheets retires should the Brewers retire his number? I would have to go with yes and although Sheets isn't a hall of fame player he is and was the greatest pitcher the Brewers ever had on the team for more than a few months.

 

Anyone else feel that Sheets number should be retired when he retires?

Sheets is no better than 5th best pitcher all time for the Brewers.

 

I'd put him behind Higuera who was 94-64 with a 3.61 ERA, Caldwell, who was 102-80 with a 3.74 ERA, Slaton, who was 117-121 with a 3.86 ERA and Haas who was 91-79 with a 4.01 ERA. Keep in mind that except for a brief pre-DH period for Slaton, all those guys faced lineups that had 9 hitters. All had at least twice as many shutouts as Sheets too.

 

So if you want to retire 49, 48, 41 and 30 first, then I'm all for it.

[And That]

Hopefully we'll have a different reason to retire #49 in about 15 years.

 

A player should have to have a Hall of Fame caliber career mostly spent in Milwaukee to even be in the conversation to have his number retired. Leading the team to a few World Series championships might be one of the very few caveats to that rule. Sheets is not going to the Hall of Fame and he won no World Series here, so he's a definite "no."

[Fatter than Joey]

I would have to go with yes and although Sheets isn't a hall of fame player he is and was the greatest pitcher the Brewers ever had on the team for more than a few months.

 

I disagree with the notion that Sheets was the best pitcher the Brewers had -- JB12 sums it up nicely.

 

Sheets isn't even the best Brewer to ever wear #15. Cecil Cooper is.

 

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

Unless they do it in honor of both players, which won't happen.

 

As a side note -- this is a rare thing to do -- I know the Yanks did it with #8 (Berra/Dickey), however that is certainly understandable -- I think the Reds did it as well, I think Johnny Bench's #5 was retired when he came to MLB, and that number had been retired for a player that committed suicide during the season. When Bench came up, they put it back in use, and then of course re-retired it after Bench hung it up.

 

A player should have to have a Hall of Fame caliber career mostly spent in Milwaukee to even be in the conversation to have his number retired. Leading the team to a few World Series championships might be one of the very few caveats to that rule.

 

Another side note -- The Astros have retired 9 numbers, only one of the numbers is for a HOF player (Nolan Ryan)-- however 2 others will certainly join Ryan, (Biggio, Bagwell). The Astros seem out of control to me with their number retiring. I think it should be reserved for only a few players. I am not opposed to recognizing non-HOF players though, just not anyone who strung together a few good seasons.

 

No to Sheets.

[CheezWizHed]

Another vote for No. He was the best pitcher on the team for most of his career here, but as others have said, not even close to the best all time.

 

Sheets had one dominating year (2004), 4 years of good, but injury filled years (2005-8) and 3 average years (2001-3). At this point, Gallardo looks like he will end up better than Sheets. Compare Gallardo's first 4 years (79 starts) to Sheets last 4 (94 starts) and you get pretty comparable numbers. The difference at this point is Sheets dominating year and the 3 so-so years that Sheets took to figure out MLB pitching (that Gallardo didn't need).

 

Sheet's situation reminds me a little bit of Paul Molitor. Except Molitor overcame his injuries and put up numbers worthy of the Hall of Fame. Sheets won't. Molitor also played for the Brewers 4 years longer than Sheets. 50% is a big difference.

 

A reminder to all the WS nods: if winning the World Series for the Brewers was a requirement, then no Brewer would have their number retired...

[DSFastball55]

I'm not opposed to having a non-HOF or non-WS winning player honored with a number retirement, but in this case I say no as well. Although Sheets is probably my favorite Brewer ever, he just wasn't good enough for long enough (yes due to injuries, but injuries are part of the game).

[MadScientist]

A base criteria should be 10 years for the Brewers and HOF level play. Adjusting for special circumstances, but not too far from that.

Sheets was no where near either. Short career, no major awards, no World Series (he didn't even get 1 playoff appearance). There's only so many numbers, and you can't retire them for everyone who had a good couple of years.

[DuWayne Steurer]

No. I'd vote "yes" on Jenkins before I'd vote "yes" on Sheets, and in all honesty, I'd vote "no" on Jenkins.

[Patrick425]

I think most of the responses on this thread are being kind to say the least. When I first saw the title, I thought it was a tongue-in-cheek response to the "Should the Brewers retire Hoffman's #" thread. I think I would abandon all hope for the Brewers if they even considered retiring Sheet's number. They would be the laughing stock of the league.

[gregmag]

I'm all on board with "no," for reasons everybody has stated quite well.

 

Just for fun, though, I'm going to put in a contrary word in favor of Ben's place in the Brewers' all-time pitching pantheon. Comparing Sheets to pitchers from earlier eras based just on W/L and ERA ignores context: how good was the team when different guys were pitching, and what were the league scoring norms? That second question accounts for, among other things, the DH.

 

This is where ERA+ really comes in handy. It isn't a be-all stat, but it does put ERA in context. WAR gives us another way to compare guys, if you're into that sort of thing. So, to take the five pitchers JB talked about:

 

Higuera: 213 G, 1985-1994; 94-64, .595 WPCT; 3.61 ERA, 117 ERA+; 28.3 WAR

Caldwell: 239 G, 1977-1984; 102-80, .560 WPCT; 3.74 ERA, 103 ERA+; 15.9 WAR

Slaton: 364 G, 1971-1983; 117-121, .492 WPCT; 3.86 ERA, 97 ERA+; 15.2 WAR

Haas: 245 G, 1976-1985; 91-79, .535 WPCT; 4.03 ERA, 97 ERA+ ; 14.4 WAR

Sheets: 221 G, 2001-2008; 86-83, .509 WPCT; 3.72 ERA, 115 ERA+; 23.8 WAR

 

I'm too lazy to figure each pitcher's winning percentage compared to team over the same time, which would be a useful piece of info to have. At a glance, Caldwell's and Haas' Brewer careers perfectly straddled the Brewers' greatest period of success; Sheets, in contrast, pitched during a severe dry spell. Higuera and Slaton were more mixed bags.

 

Looking at these numbers, any way you slice them, you get two groups of pitchers: Higuera and Sheets are one group; Caldwell, Slaton, and Haas are the other. Into that second group you could add several others:

 

Wegman 262 G, 1985-1995; 81-90, .474 WPCT; 4.16 ERA, 103 ERA+; 16.2 WAR

Bosio 212 G, 1986-1992; 67-62, .519 WPCT; 3.76 ERA, 107 ERA+; 17.9 WAR

Eldred 174 G 1991-1999; 64-65, .496 WPCT; 4.51 ERA, 101 ERA+; 11.9 WAR

Colborn 183 G, 1972-1976; 57-60, .487 WPCT; 3.80 ERA, 98 ERA+; 12.3 WAR

Travers 191 G, 1974-1980; 65-67, .492 WPCT; 3.99 ERA, 96 ERA+; 8.2 WAR

 

Then some guys with shorter service time; I'm sure I'm forgetting someone:

 

Bones 151 G, 1992-1996; 47-56, .456 WPCT; 4.64 ERA, 101 ERA+; 7.6 WAR).

Sorensen 129 G, 1977-1980; 52-46, .531 WPCT; 3.72 ERA, 107 ERA+; 11.5 WAR

Vuckovich 85 G, 1981-1986; 40-26, .606 WPCT; 3.88 ERA, 98 ERA+; 4.5 WAR

Capuano 135 G, 2004-present; 43-47, .478 WPCT; 4.36 ERA, 101 ERA+; 7.8 WAR

 

BTW, C.C. put up 4.8 WAR in his Brewer "career," with a 255 (!) ERA+.

 

You can slice and dice the careers a lot of different ways -- placing greater emphasis on peak value, length of service time, etc. For my money (leaving aside Hurricane C.C., who really defies comparison), there's Higuera, then Sheets, and then everyone else. Sheets is a lot closer to Higuera than he is to "everyone else," and you could even make an argument for him as the greatest Brewer SP ever if you emphasized the fact that he played a major role in pitching them into the playoffs. I would go along with the numbers and put Bosio squarely on top of the "everyone else" pile; dude was good when he was good. After that I think you have to make more difficult judgment calls. Behind Bosio I'd take Caldwell, who really only pitched well for us for two years, but they were great years. After him I'd take Sorensen's quality over Wegman's quantity. I just don't see Haas or Slaton as being in the same area code as Sheets. Their peaks didn't match his; their careers don't come close. The only way either of them cracks the top six is if you put a huge premium on service time and/or standing on the mound while the hitters got them into the playoffs.

 

JB mentioned shutouts, and that's the one other way you could try to discredit Sheets; he didn't pitch complete games. But that's a difference in eras. If you want to say that ordinary pitchers of the 70s were better than top-of-rotation guys of the 90s because the earlier guys completed more games, I suppose you can make a case. I just don't see it that way.

[GAME05]

if being pretty decent (overall, considering injury time) is sufficient to getting your number retired, then new Brewers players will have to resort to wearing Greek letters in 30 years.

[Fatter than Joey]

if being pretty decent (overall, considering injury time) is sufficient to getting your number retired, then new Brewers players will have to resort to wearing Greek letters in 30 years

 

They'd go to Hexadecimal first.

 

Johnny Estrada - 4F

[Invader3K]

For the record (since I started the Hoffman thread), I was just starting it to have a fun discussion, coinciding with the hoopla of his 600th save. I lean in the camp that says, "No, they probably shouldn't retire Hoffman's number." Let San Diego do it. However, he is a likely Hall of Famer, and that is the criteria that the Brewers have used when retiring numbers. (The only exception being Don Sutton, who wasn't a Brewer for very long and was more identified as a Dodger).

 

Ben Sheets was a very good pitcher; but other than an outstanding 2004 and very good, injury shortened 2008, never really rose to the level of being an elite starting pitcher in the majors. Barring a miracle comeback, he will not be a Hall of Famer. Thus, he doesn't meet the criteria the Brewers have established. I really don't think there would be any justification for retiring his number. If you retire his, you should also retire Jenkins'. Maybe even Vaughn and Burnitz as well.

[RockCoCougars]

Walk of Fame? Yes. Number retired? No. I agree that if 15 is retired it should be for Coop, but in my view, he falls short too. All that said, in my opinion, Sheets was the 2nd best pitcher in franchise history (based on time put in with the Brewers), just a notch behind Higuera. I think that Sheets was better than Caldwell, Haas or Slaton. Caldwell was gutsy, but hittable. I remember him throwing quite a few 9 or more hit shutouts. Haas had his moments, but he was also pretty hittable. I think that both Caldwell and Haas' W/L records with the Brewers were at least partly a product of them playing for offensive juggernauts. Sheets would have won a lot more games picthing for those teams. As for Slaton, he was slightly above average, but he's towards the top of most of the Brewers all time pitching lists mostly due to his longevity. Like Sheets, Higuera put up some nice win totals pitching for mostly mediocre teams. Too bad he was so old when the Brewers discovered him. I'll give Higuera the nod over Sheets by a nose because he was slightly more consistent.... though when Sheets was on, he was more dominant.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

Sheets isn't even the best Brewer to ever wear #15. Cecil Cooper is. So no, not happening. Unless they do it in honor of both players, which won't happen.

Indeed...I wish they would have retired Cooper awhile ago. I'd probably put Cooper ahead of Fingers as well.

 

I like Sheets, thought he was a good Brewer...our best player many years, but not even the Bucks would retire his number.

[WestSideWillie]

83 losses along with a .076 batting average and a 3.72 ERA, qualifies you as a 500 pitcher. Pretty much

the same stats as Oil Can Boyd and as mentioned Aaron Harang. It was a nice run for the Sheeter but not

walk of fame worthy. I vote for the first aid room naming rights, good one.

[rluzinski]

I don't see how the Brewers would justify retiring Sheets' number but some of this stuff comes accross as terribly personal. Win/loss record when he played on terrible teams for most of his Brewers career and batting average? Weak.

[dlk9s]

83 losses along with a .076 batting average and a 3.72 ERA, qualifies you as a 500 pitcher.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1934/dudewaitwhatmu4.jpg

[CheezWizHed]

.076 batting average

 

Maybe a plaque up in the batting cage?