What to do with Rogers and Jeffress

[paul253]

There was an article in today's JS about Mark Rogers and Jeremy Jeffress. I believe it was by Tom Hadricourt (sp?), and he basically said both need to go back into the rotation next year. I sometimes have some major issues with the Brewers beat writers, but in this case I couldn't agree more. He listed in there something said by Macha. I'll quote what he said so I don't get any details wrong.....

"But manager Ken [/b]Macha [/b]said it might be more advantageous to ease Jeffress and Rogers into the big leagues in relief roles, initially. If you took

those guys and you started them, their innings would probably pile up to

a point where you would get to July and say, 'These guys have enough

innings,'?" said Macha. "If you took a year and pitched them out of the

bullpen and they got 70 or 80 innings, and you pitched them in

multiple-inning stints, kind of like the Yankees did with Phil [/b]Hughes[/b], then you have them as starters the next year."

 

I just don't understand this line of thinking. The guys have been starting games their entire lives. Why, all of a sudden, do they have to be switched to relieving in order to keep innings down? Why can't they start in the minors and have their innings limited, while still increasing, down there? Rogers can probably be increased to about 6-7 innings next season, assuming he can even get that many per game. Jeffress can probably go about 5-6. That means by 2012 they should have no problem with innings if they are in the starting rotation. For an organization that has had two consecutive seasons ruined by pitching, it seems like they are being a little too overprotective of their prospects. While Rogers and Jeffress would be rotting away in the bullpen, the Brewers are throwing out guys like Braden Looper, Chris Narveson, Marco Estrada, Dave Bush, and Doug Davis. No offense to those guys, but how do you expect to win a division when Doug Davis is your number 3?

 

I'm ready to give up 2011 already because I don't think there are enough solutions to the rotation. Unless something unexpected happens, I see another season similar to this (that's why I'd be ok trading Fielder for prospects). But in 2012, they should have three starting pitchers ready to move into the rotation (Rogers, Jeffress, and Rivas) and a few more not far behind (Peralta, Scarpetta, and Heckathorn). Obviously injuries can happen and pitchers can have down years, but all 6 of those guys seem to be consistently good.

 

Anyway.....the whole point of this rant is that Rogers and Jeffress both need to be starting games in the minor next season. I'm curious what the general opinion of this board is.

[logan82]

Leave them in the minors for the majority of next year. Rogers can build up his innings and be a starter in 2012. Jeffress can show he really has improved his control ans they can either build up his innings as a starter or have him work on refining his pitches as a reliever.

[sveumrules]

I'd like to see the team get kind of creative and piggyback Rogers/Jeffress in the 5 spot next year. The rotation would then be YO, Wolf, Hypothetical Fielder Trade Return, Narveson, Rogers/Jeffress Piggyback. In 2012 you could then have YO, HFTR, Rogers, Jeffress, Odorizzi.

 

Daydreaming aside, they should both be starting in AAA next year. They, along with Odorizzi, are the only top of the rotation caliber starters in the system currently. I like the others you mentioned above but to me they all profile in that 3-5 range. Certainly some of these guys will fall to attrition, get hurt, or end up in the pen longterm but there is much more cause for optimism on the pitching front moving forward now than there was at the beginning of the year for sure.

[Crash2303]

if you put Rogers back in the rotation- he'll break down. he's had enough arm troubles as it is- i would view that as a tremendously risky move. why do that? I don't really see him being more than a Manny Parra type as a starter. right now he's a valuable bullpen guy who has found a lot of success there. i'd definitely be worried about getting over excited because he made it through most of the season healthy and putting extra stress on that arm.

Jeffress, i don't know. he hasn't pitched that much- and i don't know if he's shown the dominance as a starter that i see when he comes in as a reliever. He says he's more comfortable the relief role too. personally- i'm salivating at the thought of a bullpen housed by Braddock, Axford, Jeffress, Rogers, Kintzler- for years to come.

but, i definitely agree at this point i think it'd be best for both of these guys to at least begin the year in AAA next season.

[uwisfan]

umm, Rogers has already been pitching as a starter this year, so it probably wouldnt make sense to move him unless he fails to start throwing strikes. As for Jeffress, I just dont know that he can make it as a starter. He seems to throw better out of the pen. Bottom line is the org needs quality starters and will everything to stretch their staff into starters if possible.

[endaround]

if you put Rogers back in the rotation- he'll break down. he's had enough arm troubles as it is- i would view that as a tremendously risky move. why do that? I don't really see him being more than a Manny Parra type as a starter. right now he's a valuable bullpen guy who has found a lot of success there. i'd definitely be worried about getting over excited because he made it through most of the season healthy and putting extra stress on that arm.

Jeffress, i don't know. he hasn't pitched that much- and i don't know if he's shown the dominance as a starter that i see when he comes in as a reliever. He says he's more comfortable the relief role too. personally- i'm salivating at the thought of a bullpen housed by Braddock, Axford, Jeffress, Rogers, Kintzler- for years to come.

but, i definitely agree at this point i think it'd be best for both of these guys to at least begin the year in AAA next season.

Rogers has been starting the entire season. Are you confusing him with Braddock?

[Never Outhustled]

Rogers is at 117 innings, with at least 1 start coming, maybe 2. He already at a 53 inning increase from last year, and is as strong as ever. Continue to monitor his pitch count next year, and start him at AAA, but his number of starts for next year is of no concern. He could easily finish next season in the Brewers rotation, right into the postseason.

 

Jeffress is a different situation. He requested to relieve because he believes it helps him stay clean. Why is protecting his arm a concern, but not his mental health? Shame on the Brewers if they move him back to starting. Its pretty sad if they put the needs of the organization ahead of helping this young man stay clean. Maybe in a few years, but not now. Also, Jeffress, unlike Rogers, needs significant development to become a starting pitcher. We have plenty of pitching prospects who will be ready by the time he's ready to start in the bigs.

 

 

While Rogers and Jeffress would be rotting away in the bullpen, the Brewers are throwing out guys like Braden Looper, Chris Narveson, Marco Estrada, Dave Bush, and Doug Davis. No offense to those guys, but how do you expect to win a division when Doug Davis is your number 3?

Pretty sure the only guy in that group who will even be in the organization is Narveson. Next years rotation has a chance to be very good, simply because the Brewers have the resources to add at least 2 quality pitchers. Do you really think their going to keep Fielder, let Gamel rot, and slash the payroll by $20 million?

[igor67]

I'd love Jeffress to make it as a starter, but innings or only the first hurdle. Control, and the reduced velocity from starting are also part of the equation. I think at this point splitting them and having just a pen loaded with hard throwers, and options so you can mix and match the most effective and handle injuries is a solid plan. If you want to hedge on him starting again. Develop him as a stopper who can go more than an inning some of the time, along with Axford, and Braddock. And as a bonus LaRussa can tell us how we are disrespecting the game by having all of the these relievers who can pitch more than an inning.

[LouisEly]

I've suggested several times that Rogers could be the #5 starter and skipping his turn in the rotation for off-days would keep his innings down.

 

I'm intrigued by the piggy-back idea. Whether it's Jeffress, Braddock, McClendon, or Axford they have several relievers who can go multiple innings.

[logan82]

Leave Rogers in AAA most of the year next year. No reason to waste service time in a non-playoff year on guys who we can legitimately leave in the minors. Right now, Gamel is the only guy who we really can't leave in the minors next year unless he gets injured again.

[DHonks]

The concern with hard throwers that lack control is that they might benefit from time in the bullpen where they learn how to attack hitters. Think of Adam Wainwright and how the bullpen helped transform him

[paul253]

Pretty sure the only guy in that group who will even be in the organization is Narveson.

 

Yeah but my point was that if we don;t eventually fill the rotation with our own guys we will continue to trot out guys like the ones mentioned about. So while Narveson may be the only one of the above mentioned players in the rotation next season, you can insert your own names to fill it out. And I wouldn't bother putting Cliff Lee in there.

 

Why is protecting his arm a concern, but not his mental health?

 

Quite honestly, if the only way he can stay off of marijuana is to have the possibility of pitching every day, then he needs help. What happens when he pitches three days in a row and the manager says he is unavailable for that days game? Or in the off season? Is he going to think it's ok to smoke pot then? I've never smoked it, but from what I'm told it's not physically addictive. If he can't quite smoking it it's because either a) he doesn't want to or b) he has some sort of mental issue that should be addressed before he is allowed to play baseball again. What I'm getting at is that his mental health is as important as his physical health. But if he really needs to be in the bullpen to avoid smoking it, then he shouldn't be playing baseball until that changes because it's not normal and it's not healthy.

 

Next years rotation has a chance to be very good, simply because the

Brewers have the resources to add at least 2 quality pitchers.

 

I just can't see Prince Fielder bringing back someone who will make the rotation go from horrible to very good. And the free agent crop after Lee is underwhelming. I don't anticipate this rotation being "very good" next season.

[TooLiveBrew]

Since Jeffress is on the 40-man roster now there's really no reason to worry about marijuana anymore. He should (and imo will) return to starting next season.

[Never Outhustled]

Since Jeffress is on the 40-man roster now there's really no reason to worry about marijuana anymore. He should (and imo will) return to starting next season.

 

So the only reason to worry about it is because of suspension? It has no impact on the rest of his life?

 

Quite honestly, if the only way he can stay off of marijuana is to have the possibility of pitching every day, then he needs help.

He is getting help, and thats a rather cold thing to say. After getting help, he decided the sense of urgency of needing to be ready each day would help keep him clean. I think the Brewers should continue to respect his wishes a little longer.

 

 

 

I just can't see Prince Fielder bringing back someone who will make the rotation go from horrible to very good. And the free agent crop after Lee is underwhelming. I don't anticipate this rotation being "very good" next season.

You can't see us getting a good pitcher for Fielder? You don't think we could deal a 2nd position player, like McGehee or Weeks, for a quality pitcher? I don't care about the FA pitcher market past Lee, we should deal position players, and then sign 1. Teams will like the affordability of the guys we can deal.

[TooLiveBrew]

So the only reason to worry about it is because of suspension? It has no impact on the rest of his life?

 

We're not going to agree on this, but no I don't believe it would have a significant one.

[paul253]

He is getting help, and thats a rather cold thing to say. After getting

help, he decided the sense of urgency of needing to be ready each day

would help keep him clean. I think the Brewers should continue to

respect his wishes a little longer.

 

How is that a cold thing to say? I said that if his problem is so severe that he has to pitch in order to not smoke it then he should get help because that can't be normal for something that supposedly isn't physically addictive. There are different types of "help". I could go in and get "help" for drinking alcohol once a week, but it wouldn't be the same "help" as an alcoholic would get. Just because he's getting treatment now doesn't mean it is working. Good for him for determining what factors can help him stay clean. But again, if that's the only thing that can keep him clean then I just can't see that as being normal. The guy's career is on the line. He never went to college and it would be tough returning to a "normal life". It would literally cost him millions of dollars. If that's not enough to give up marijuana, he has issues.

 

You can't see us getting a good pitcher for Fielder? You don't think we

could deal a 2nd position player, like McGehee or Weeks, for a quality

pitcher?

I didn't say we couldn't get a good pitcher for him. I said I didn't think we could get someone who would make our rotation go from horrible to very good. Look what was offered to us for Fielder near the trade deadline. Daniel Hudson was probably the best pitcher we got offered (yes that's just speculation but if there was anyone better Melvin probably would have taken it). It's not that Hudson isn't a good pitcher, but I don't think if we insert him or someone like him into the rotation next season it's going to be a very good rotation. Better yes. Very good probably not. And finally, yes I suppose they could trade McGehee too. But then you take a major hit offensively losing both Fielder and McGehee.

[thebruce44]

TooLiveBrew[/b]]So the only reason to worry about it is because of suspension? It has no impact on the rest of his life?

 

We're not going to agree on this, but no I don't believe it would have a significant one.

 

Agreed. If he wants to smoke and he handles the rest of his business, why should we be concerned. Its not like there aren't players who are alcoholics, which is much more likely to detrimentally effect your performance on the field. Nobody ever told Wade Boggs to put down that 64th beer because the game was about to start.

[CheezWizHed]

So the only reason to worry about it is because of suspension? It has no impact on the rest of his life?

 

We're not going to agree on this, but no I don't believe it would have a significant one.

I'll pass on the obvious conflict here (i.e. the effects of smoking marijuana on a person) and point out that marijuana is still illegal. Getting arrested for possession can effect a persons career also.

 

For some reason, people focus on drug testing in the MiLB and forget about the legal ramifications.

[logan82]

So the only reason to worry about it is because of suspension? It has no impact on the rest of his life?

 

We're not going to agree on this, but no I don't believe it would have a significant one.

I'll pass on the obvious conflict here (i.e. the effects of smoking marijuana on a person) and point out that marijuana is still illegal. Getting arrested for possession can effect a persons career also.

 

For some reason, people focus on drug testing in the MiLB and forget about the legal ramifications.

It sure killed Lincecum's career.

[paul253]

Well I supposed getting a little back on topic Macha mentioned that Rogers will probably get a start in the Florida series. I don't know the reason for him doing so, but if it is to get people to watch, it worked with me. I'm excited to see him start a game, even if he only goes 2 or 3 innings. Hopefully its also a good sign about next season. I was also thinking about Macha's logic. "If you took

those guys and you started them, their innings would probably pile up to

a point where you would get to July and say, 'These guys have enough

innings,'?" said Macha". If Rogers pitches out of the bullpen next season, won't his innings actually go down? How does that help his development?

[CheezWizHed]

It sure killed Lincecum's career.

 

If he is found in possession of a bag or worse, in an accident while DUI, yeah, it would ruin his career. I was only trying to point out that just because he won't be tested and banned, doesn't make him free and clear... its still illegal. Course, Lincecum pitches in California...

 

If Rogers pitches out of the bullpen next season, won't his innings actually go down? How does that help his development?

 

I had that same thought. Made sense for Jeffress, since he hadn't pitched in so long to ease him back in. Ditto for Rogers last year. But there shouldn't be any reason for Rogers to pitch less than 140 innings next year. I suppose as an multi-inning reliever, Jeffress could reach 90-100 innings, assuming he is effective.

[Invader3K]

I really hope at least one of them is an option to be a starter coming into spring training next season. We just can't wait around forever for these young guys to be ready. At some point you have to throw them into the fire and see if they stick or fail. It's a lot easier to move someone back into the bullpen than to transition them to starting later on.

 

As an aside, I really hope we can quit talking about Jeffress' substance issues sooner than later. Hopefully he has already put that part of his life behind him. People still bring up Paul Molitor's cocaine use 30 years later, so I guess some fans can just never let go of this kind of stuff.

[DHonks]

Invader, in fairness I believe the rumors with Molitor were still about addiction just a few years ago, although the rumor I'd heard was I think maybe a sex addiction. I could be wrong though.

 

But yes, you're right, for now we should think positively about Jeffress, not focus on his past

[thebruce44]

CheezWizHed[/b]]

TooLiveBrew[/b]]So the only reason to worry about it is because of suspension? It has no impact on the rest of his life?

 

We're not going to agree on this, but no I don't believe it would have a significant one.

I'll pass on the obvious conflict here (i.e. the effects of smoking marijuana on a person) and point out that marijuana is still illegal.

So is speeding, yet everyone does it. If the guy wants to take bong rips in the comfort of his own home, and takes care of his business on the field who are we to complain.

 

 

[paul253]

So just a quick vote here. In one sentence for each, what should be done with them next season?

 

Rogers: Starting in Nashville

Jeffress: Starting in Huntsville and if he is doing well after 6 or 7 starts promote him to Nashville.