Why is Braun untouchable?

[kramnoj]

But wasn't WAR calculated differently before 2002

 

Was WAR calculated in 2002? Unless you mean BPro's WARP, which includes a questionable non-PBP defense valuation.

 

Yount's 82 is truly incredible. Sean Smith's WAR, per B-Ref, has him worth 11.5 Wins, and less than a win of that was because of his defense on the field. His offense, especially compared to the shortstops, was just amazing.

[RockCoCougars]

Do you think anyone in their right mind in about 1984 or so would have brought up trading Yount?

Probably not in 1984 but definitely in 1985, I bet there would have been lots advocating moving Yount- too bad brewerfan.net wasn't around then. I can just see the post, "Let's sell while he still has value. He's been regressing since 1982, not to mention that his shoulder is shot and he can't play shortstop anymore. We are set in the outfield with two future studs in Dion James and Doug Loman, and Glenn Braggs is tearing it up in El Paso with an ETA of the middle of next year. We need pitching. The Mets are stacked with young pitching, I wonder if they would trade Calvin Schiraldi for Yount straight up- or would we have to add something to sweeten the pot (maybe we could eat a chunk of Yount's salary)? If we could move Yount, we could have almost an extra million in payroll to save for the free agent market."

[Invader3K]

You mean we could have had Schiraldi???

 

/blue

[RockCoCougars]

You mean we could have had Schiraldi???

 

/blue

Schiraldi was a stud. I don't have any proof, but I'd be willing to bet that he was highly ranked by Baseball America. Unfortunately, then- as is the case now- we didn't have the young pitching to get the other team to bite. Dalton asked, but the Mets wouldn't do anything if Nieves or Higuera wasn't involved....

[thebruce44]

But wasn't WAR calculated differently before 2002

 

Was WAR calculated in 2002? Unless you mean BPro's WARP, which includes a questionable non-PBP defense valuation.

 

Yount's 82 is truly incredible. Sean Smith's WAR, per B-Ref, has him worth 11.5 Wins, and less than a win of that was because of his defense on the field. His offense, especially compared to the shortstops, was just amazing.

 

I really don't remember the year WAR started being calculated in its current form. I was just pointing out the hole in bringing up Yount's WAR compared to Braun's.

[kramnoj]

I was just pointing out the hole in bringing up Yount's WAR compared to Braun's.

 

What hole are you pointing out? If there is a change in calculating a version of WAR, it would apply to the past and present.

[Invader3K]

I think trying to compare value of players from completely different eras is a relatively fruitless endeavor.

[endaround]

The biggest difference is defense calculatiosn now can use PBP data while past defense has to be extrapolated from existing data.

[MJLiverock]

The defensive metrics are questionable today in comparison to the precision ways they are referenced, guessing at what they were 30 years ago is just that, pure guesswork.

[thebruce44]

I was just pointing out the hole in bringing up Yount's WAR compared to Braun's.

 

What hole are you pointing out? If there is a change in calculating a version of WAR, it would apply to the past and present.

As other posters have pointed out, no, it doesn't apply to the past and present.

 

 

[kramnoj]

Other posters have not addressed what I wrote in 25. The calculation of WAR for offense that is used now is applied to the past. Yount being a shortstop is important to how valuable he was, but his actual defensive performance represents less than a win of the 11.5 Wins he is attributed in 1982.

 

We can compare players from now and the past, but the biggest thing we are doing is saying how Yount compared to his peers versus how Braun compares to his.

 

Yount in 82 provided more Wins above replacement than Pujols, for example, has provided in any season.

[thebruce44]

kramnoj[/b]]Other posters have not addressed what I wrote in 25. The calculation of WAR for offense that is used now is applied to the past. Yount being a shortstop is important to how valuable he was, but his actual defensive performance represents less than a win of the 11.5 Wins he is attributed in 1982.

 

We can compare players from now and the past, but the biggest thing we are doing is saying how Yount compared to his peers versus how Braun compares to his.

 

Yount in 82 provided more Wins above replacement than Pujols, for example, has provided in any season.

I am really not sure what you are getting at. I was simply saying that WAR was calculated differently back then vs today, which it was. I would prefer to look at their VORPs if you wanted to compare Braun and Yount, at least offensively.

[kramnoj]

I was simply saying that WAR was calculated differently back then vs today, which it was.

 

WAR wasn't calculated at all back then. The WAR that we have now that puts a value for Yount back then and for players today is the same formula.

[nate82]

Of course Yount is going to have a higher WAR. Yount played SS and CF both of those positions lack a lot of good bats. Also comparing Yount's WAR to Braun's WAR is like comparing an orange to an apple. I don't like the WAR stat being used to compare players from different decades as it gives an inaccurate picture. What defensive metrics are you using to judge that players defense and is it the same as the one you are comparing with the current player? You also have to take into consideration the type of competition that was going on during the two players you are comparing. WAR is just to inaccurate of a players worth to be comparing players from different decades.

[kramnoj]

Of course Yount is going to have a higher WAR. Yount played SS and CF both of those positions lack a lot of good bats.

 

Yount had a good WAR when he hit well. He didn't always have a higher WAR.

 

What defensive metrics are you using to judge that players defense and is it the same as the one you are comparing with the current player?

 

You haven't read the posts where I have addressed this, you don't understand them, or you disagree with them. Which of these apply, and if relevant, why or how?

 

You also have to take into consideration the type of competition that was going on during the two players you are comparing.

 

What specifically do you think needs to be taken into consideration when comparing Yount versus Braun and their eras? In Yount's day, there was very little talent from Asia in the majors, while in Braun's era there seem to be a declining number of African Americans who instead focus on basketball or football.

[Never Outhustled]

WAR is just to inaccurate of a players worth to be comparing players from different decades.

Then just compare them to the players of their era then. Yount was dominant his era in WAR. Braun has never been near the top, he hasn't even finished among the top 25 of position players in WAR.

[nate82]

You haven't read the posts where I have addressed this, you don't understand them, or you disagree with them. Which of these apply, and if relevant, why or how?

 

I just made a blanket statement about WAR in general in regards to the defensive metric being used. I just don't like WAR being used for players in the past there are just to many variables to take into consideration for it to be real conclusive to compare player A from x time period to player B from x time period. I generally don't like comparing players from one era to a current player at all really is what I am trying to say.

[thebruce44]

I was simply saying that WAR was calculated differently back then vs today, which it was.

 

WAR wasn't calculated at all back then. The WAR that we have now that puts a value for Yount back then and for players today is the same formula.

False. There are a couple differences.

 

Post 2002 calcs use UZR, pre use Total Zone and positional adjustments are based by decade and from Sean Smith’s positional adjustments instead of Tangotiger.

[kramnoj]

Post 2002 calcs use UZR, pre use Total Zone and positional adjustments are based by decade and from Sean Smith’s positional adjustments instead of Tangotiger.

 

False. Current B-ref stats use Total Zone, which does not use UZR, although it correlates well to it.

 

I just don't like WAR being used for players in the past there are just to many variables to take into consideration for it to be real conclusive to compare player A from x time period to player B from x time period.

 

I feel confident that we can conclude that Yount in 82 was a far better player compared to his peers than Braun has yet been. What specifically do you think keeps us from reaching that conclusion?

[thebruce44]

False. Current B-ref stats use Total Zone, which does not use UZR, although it correlates well to it.

 

Nobody uses B-ref's value charts.

[Never Outhustled]

I was simply saying that WAR was calculated differently back then vs today, which it was.

 

WAR wasn't calculated at all back then. The WAR that we have now that puts a value for Yount back then and for players today is the same formula.

False. There are a couple differences.

 

Post 2002 calcs use UZR, pre use Total Zone and positional adjustments are based by decade and from Sean Smith’s positional adjustments instead of Tangotiger.

 

 

What does that matter, it was already stated that the major difference in value here is coming from their offense anyway.

[thebruce44]

I was simply saying that WAR was calculated differently back then vs today, which it was.

 

WAR wasn't calculated at all back then. The WAR that we have now that puts a value for Yount back then and for players today is the same formula.

False. There are a couple differences.

 

Post 2002 calcs use UZR, pre use Total Zone and positional adjustments are based by decade and from Sean Smith’s positional adjustments instead of Tangotiger.

 

 

What does that matter, it was already stated that the major difference in value here is coming from their offense anyway.

Agreed. Thats why I suggested just using VORP. I really didn't want to get into a debate since Yount's 82 was one of the greatest seasons of all time in my opinion. Kramnoj just seemed to keep responding to me about technicalities that I disagree with.