Latest umpiring debacle? [Now discussing Davidson]

[TooLiveBrew]

Oh my... I deserve the shame. I deserve it.

 

I'm sorry Chris DICKERSON. Yikes.

[mletto157]

OK, I wasn't watching... can someone please explain to me how the umpire can toss a fan out of the game?

[jeffy]

Watch from about 2:35 here:

 

http://blog.prorumors.com...st-louis-cardinals-game/

[mletto157]

That's pretty ridiculous. Tossing Dickerson seemed incredibly un-called for. And tossing a fan for heckling? I guess we can't see what he is saying on there... but I didn't think the umpires would ever consider tossing a fan.

[RightFieldCoder]

I thought Dickerson had it coming. Watching in person, I thought he slammed the helmet as a direct showing of the ump his dislike of those calls. I would have been shocked if Dickie hadn't gotten tossed.

[TooLiveBrew]

Rock summed the Dickerson ejection up well by saying something like, 'Any ump would've tossed him there'. Duncan is really the only non-fan that might not have deserved to have been run, but he was probably barking at Davidson from the opening at-bat.

[azcheesehead]

I'm not a big fan of Bernie Miklasz, but he is pretty dead on with this one.

[jerichoholicninja]

I'm not a big fan of Bernie Miklasz, but he is pretty dead on with this one.

Reading the article pretty much confirmed my suspicion that Molina asked for the fan to be tossed. Just before Davidson threw him out you could clearly hear some guy yelling something and the word "Molina" was one of them. Immediately after that the fan got tossed. Those classy Cardinals just can't play with unclassy fans around.

[mletto157]

Yeah, like I said... I didn't see it. But just watching that video it seemed pretty quick. I originally thought he was just mad at himself for not swinging. Prince slams his bat all the time when he's mad at himself.

[geddymd73]

Fans should get thrown out more often. It will just go to show that nobody escapes the wrath of the umpire. His motto is "make the call" and "take control", while getting it right is only secondary.

[bucks2281]

I don't think the ejected fan deserved a disorderly conduct ticket. If the ushering staff and police, who enforce the MP Code of Conduct, didn't deem his behavior worthy of ejection, why should he receive a ticket? Just because Bob Davidson thinks so? I hope this guy contacts his lawyer about fighting the ticket.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't know much, if anything, about the legal system, but could said fan have a case to try to bring against MLB? Just curious.

[bucks2281]

I don't think he'd have much of a case against MLB. The Brewers and the Milwaukee Police took action against the fan because of Bob Davidson's directive. I'm thinking, though, if the fan had not been given a warning by the cops/ushers and wasn't ticking off fellow fans, his ticket is completely unwarranted. I'm reading Bleacher Report right now, and it says that umpires, by rule, have no right to eject fans who have not entered the playing field. If it's true that this guy was not in violation of the Code of Conduct, then I think he really has a case here.

[bani1717]

I'm guessing there's something in the Code of Conduct about being "loud and unruly" (something like that if I remember right). If there's any type of general phrase like that, then you could easily argue that he's breaking it.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm reading Bleacher Report right now, and it says that umpires, by rule, have no right to eject fans who have not entered the playing field. If it's true that this guy was not in violation of the Code of Conduct, then I think he really has a case here.

 

This is what I was wondering. Maybe nothing like an eye-popping lawsuit, but that fan probably can sue MLB in some manner. I doubt much will come of it, though, beyond maybe seeing the ticket dropped.

 

 

EDIT: The best I could find for a Fan Code of Conduct was individual ballparks' codes of conduct. All of them that I could find (LAD, PHI, CHW, TBR, NYM, CLE, BAL) included some variation on the phrase: "foul, abusive or obscene language or gestures." So it would appear this fan definitely violated that clause, but I don't see whether or not the umpire is supposed to be able to eject a fan that hasn't entered the field of play. All the language in the codes of conduct refer to contacting stadium security and/or an usher.

 

Rule 4.06(a)(1) of MLB's Official Rules states, "No manager, player, substitute, coach, trainer or batboy shall at any time, whether

from the bench, the coach’s box or on the playing field, or elsewhere— (1) Incite, or try to incite, by word or sign a demonstration by spectators"

 

Rule 9.01(d) states, "Each umpire has authority to disqualify any player, coach, manager or substitute for objecting to decisions or for unsportsmanlike conduct or language, and to eject such disqualified person from the playing field. If an umpire disqualifies a player while a play is in progress, the disqualification shall not take effect until no further action is possible in that play.

 

Rule 9.01(e): "Each umpire has authority at his discretion to eject from the playing field (1) any person whose duties permit his presence on the field, such as ground crew members, ushers, photographers, newsmen, broadcasting crew members, etc., and (2) any spectator or other person not authorized to be on the playing field."

 

 

So it sounds like Davidson would have been in the right to eject a player saying the things this fan was to Molina, but I don't think he had the right to eject a fan in this instance. I'd imagine MLB's rule 4.06(a)(1) would apply to umpires as well, but I could be wrong.

[Fatter than Joey]

So it sounds like Davidson would have been in the right to eject a player saying the things this fan was to Molina, but I don't think he had the right to eject a fan in this instance.

 

Right -- I didn't read "any spectator or other person not authorized to be on the playing field" to mean that the ump can only eject fans that run on the field -- rather that the ump could eject a ball-boy authorized to be on the field OR a fan who ran onto the field.

 

I know umps have gotten after fans who have had things that could distract players such as flash cameras, or laser pointers -- If a fan was audibly distracting, I think the ump would have the responsibility to remove the fan. It really all depends on what the fan was saying, or if the fan was trying to distract Molina to impact the play of the game, or just razz Molina

[jeffy]

I don't think the ejected fan deserved a disorderly conduct ticket. If the ushering staff and police, who enforce the MP Code of Conduct, didn't deem his behavior worthy of ejection, why should he receive a ticket? Just because Bob Davidson thinks so? I hope this guy contacts his lawyer about fighting the ticket.

 

 

Yes, watching the game I found it surprising that the ushers are just take orders from the umpire in that situation, then I thought they are probably just going to make the guy move to a different seat. But then I read that the guy was handcuffed and ticketed...really? So now the County Sheriff Deputies just take their orders from baseball umpires? I hope the guy does fight it, wouldn't that mean that County would need some witnesses? I think it'd be great if they had to drag the whiner Molina and this joke of an umpire, Davidson, into court to testify, at least.

[Fatter than Joey]

Yes, watching the game I found it surprising that the ushers are just take orders from the umpire in that situation

 

You have to remember it is the umpires job to ensure that the "playing field is fair" to both teams, not the ushers. The ushers are employed by the home team and are not impartial.

 

If there is something unfair about the field or the playing conditions -- the umpire has the authority and obligation to make the home team make the appropriate adjustments, otherwise they can call a forfeit.

[jeffy]

Surely would not want the umpires ejecting any fan who razzes the other team's players, because it is supposedly "unfair"? The playing field does not include the fans in the stands. Your logic would seem to ultimately lead to a requirement that all fans sit silently in the stands (no cheering, booing, etc. and better stop the home team from doing things like suggesting "make some noise" too) or risk ejection by the umpire.

 

It is not the job of the umpires to supervise the fans in the stands. The most the umpire should have done was suggest to the usher that he monitor the fan that he thought was going too far. Umpires should not be authorized to throw a fans in the stands out of the ballpark...and I do not think they are.

[Fatter than Joey]

Surely would not want the umpires ejecting any fan who razzes the other team's players, because it is supposedly "unfair"?

 

Agreed. But there is a line in the sand -- Reminding Molina that he sucks is one thing, blowing a horn right before a pitch is thrown is something that affects performance as is repeated derogatory comments.

 

Your logic would seem to ultimately lead to a requirement that all fans sit silently in the stands (no cheering, booing, etc. and better stop the home team from doing things like suggesting "make some noise" too) or risk ejection by the umpire.

 

You are purposely exaggerating anything I have said to try to give your argument more merit. Straw-man 101.

 

The fan was ejected for making homophobic slurs. I find homophobic slurs to be different than "make some noise" -- perhaps you think "make some noise" should incorporate homophobic slurs -- if that is the case, we can agree to disagree here.

 

It is not the job of the umpires to supervise the fans in the stands.

 

Right, however, the fan behind home plate said or did something that kept Molina from doing his job in the eyes of the umpire. I think it is a big reach to think that the fan in question was just yelling "boo" or "yay" and got ejected for that -- though I suppose it is possible. According to all accounts Davidson ejected this fan for using homophobic slurs.

 

The most the umpire should have done was suggest to the usher that he monitor the fan that he thought was going too far.

 

I disagree. If I am an ump in charge of a MLB game, I don't have the time to baby-sit or dink around with ushers. If a fan is impacting play, they are gone.

 

Umpires should not be authorized to throw a fans in the stands out of the ballpark...and I do not think they are.

 

Umpires do in fact have the authority to eject fans-- that is beyond debate. They have in the past, and will continue to do so.

 

All that said, I do think that Davidson is an umpire prone to grandstanding, and I do certainly allow for the possibility that perhaps the fan didn't make the homophobic slur... but if he did -- I have no problem with his ejection.

[TooLiveBrew]

The fan was ejected for making homophobic slurs. I find homophobic slurs to be different than "make some noise" -- perhaps you think "make some noise" should incorporate homophobic slurs -- if that is the case, we can agree to disagree here.

 

If he told the truth on the radio, he didn't really even come close to making homophobic slurs. And certainly wasn't doing anything nearly as distracting as your horn example -- isn't that a straw-man, too?

[DuWayne Steurer]

Let's assume the guy was telling the truth, and that the most 'homophobic' thing he said was "hey Yadi, you like making your living on your knees?".

 

Throwing the guy out for that is SERIOUSLY weak sauce.

 

Like I said, the heckling/verbal abuse the kids on the field take at the Mallards games is 10X worse than that.

[Fatter than Joey]

If he told the truth on the radio, he didn't really even come close to making homophobic slurs.

 

He was ejected for making homophobic slurs -- that is what Davidson said.

 

Bruce Froemming also said:

 

Froemming, in fact, was sitting in the stands Tuesday night at Miller Park with his wife when a fan, later identified as Sean Ottow, 44, of Waukesha, Wis., was ejected by home plate umpire Bob Davidson for heckling Cardinals catcher Yadier Molina.

 

Froemming said the fan, who was wearing a Milwaukee Brewers jersey, had used vulgarity in his jeering of Molina. "Davidson did what you do when there's profanity in the stands with women and children sitting there," Froemming said. "He told security to get the guy out."

 

isn't that a straw-man, too?

 

No. For two reasons,

 

One, Davidson has clearly stated the fan was ejected for making a homophobic slur

 

Two, I said this in my post:

 

All that said, I do think that Davidson is an umpire prone to grandstanding, and I do certainly allow for the possibility that perhaps the fan didn't make the homophobic slur... but if he did -- I have no problem with his ejection.

[bucks2281]

Umpires do in fact have the authority to eject fans-- that is beyond debate.

 

I don't think it is stated in the rules that they have the authority to eject spectators, but they have done it anyways. My point is that tethering this guy to a bench and ticketing him is a tad severe if Bob Davidson is the only person who thinks he did something wrong.

 

I disagree. If I am an ump in charge of a MLB game, I don't have the time to baby-sit or dink around with ushers. If a fan is impacting play, they are gone.

 

If what the fan said was truly abhorrent to Davidson, he could have discreetly notified an usher between innings. But no, Davidson had to grandstand.

 

So now the County Sheriff Deputies just take their orders from baseball umpires?

 

This is pretty much what bothers me most. If the guy was making homophobic slurs, then yes, he should be ejected. Nobody wants to hear that. But, I'm troubled that Davidson is the sole reason this guy was ticketed. I don't know ... I'm thinking out loud, but this struck me as a really interesting legal conundrum.

[Fatter than Joey]

Let's assume the guy was telling the truth, and that the most 'homophobic' thing he said was "hey Yadi, you like making your living on your knees?".

 

Throwing the guy out for that is SERIOUSLY weak sauce.

 

Like I said, the heckling/verbal abuse the kids on the field take at the Mallards games is 10X worse than that.

The disconnect is that no one knows what this clown actually said, or is not repeating it. Bruce Froemming said he heard profane things, I don't know why he would lie, but perhaps he would.

 

I guess I don't see any sort of gray area in racist or homophobic statements. It either is or isn't, and if you make a statement like the one you propose above, I don't know why you would expect any sort of tolerance for your behavior.

 

That is a shame people in Madison behave themselves so poorly at Mallard games -- I have been to a lot of Mallard games, and outside of a few drunken idiots -- the crowds are generally well behaved. In either case what happens in the Duck Pond isn't justification for what happens elsewhere.