Latest umpiring debacle? [Now discussing Davidson]

[RU Rah Rah]

I'm wondering what people think of the end of today's Rangers-Twins game, which concluded with the Michael Young (the potential tying run) being called out at third base after he touched hands with the Rangers' third base coach. To me, it seems like a ticky-tack way to record the final out in a game in September.

 

Has the umpiring really deteriorated this year? Or are we just noticing more of the usual array of questionable calls?

[Baldkin]

You can't touch a guy while the ball is live. Period. There really isn't any room in the rules for a gray area there, in my opinion. "Oh they just touched hands." but what if the 3b coach grabbed his hand to help him stop?

Nyjer Morgan was just called out at home last week on a similar thing when Ivan Rodriguez pushed him back to home plate after he missed it.

[sbrylski]

Similar to the Dustin Johnson PGA story. A rule is a rule.

[RU Rah Rah]

Well, the rule states: "It

is interference when, in the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at

third base or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically

assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base."

 

I don't think the coach "physically assisted" Young in returning to third. Yes, they touched finger tips, but that's about it. Young already had slammed on the brakes. The Morgan/Rodriguez play provides a good comparison: he clearly grabbed Morgan and shoved/directed him back to home plate. Nothing even close to that happened in the Rangers game.

 

The replay is here:

 

http://minnesota.twins.ml..._id=8878976&c_id=min

 

In this particular situation -- end of the game, questionable infraction -- I think you have to swallow the whistle.

[MNBrew]

Well, the rule states: "It

is interference when, in the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at

third base or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically

assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base."

 

I don't think the coach "physically assisted" Young in returning to third. Yes, they touched finger tips, but that's about it. Young already had slammed on the brakes. The Morgan/Rodriguez play provides a good comparison: he clearly grabbed Morgan and shoved/directed him back to home plate. Nothing even close to that happened in the Rangers game.

 

The replay is here:

 

http://minnesota.twins.ml..._id=8878976&c_id=min

 

In this particular situation -- end of the game, questionable infraction -- I think you have to swallow the whistle.

Swallowing the whistle -- and the seemingly arbitrary way it's done, not to mention for whom -- is part of what makes NBA refereeing such a joke.

 

A rule is a rule. Young & Anderson (the 3B coach), intentionally or not, put themselves & their team in a situation where that rule stood to be invoked. Unfortunately for them, it was. Ticky tack or not, it's a perfectly legitimate call.

 

It's like running out of a baseline. Whether it's normally called or not, it could be called in so many situations. So, arbitrary enforcement or not, a player has no good grounds to argue that call, either, if he was indeed out of the baseline.

[sbrylski]

Curious, was he safe on the dive back to third base anyway? It looked pretty close.

[trwi7]

1. I would've liked to have seen if he was actually safe at 3rd when he got back because it looked pretty close.

 

2. When they showed the replay, the umpire wasn't even looking so how could he have known that they touched hands? Aren't you only supposed to call what you see and not what you think you saw?

[RU Rah Rah]

trwi7 wrote:

 

2. When they showed the replay, the umpire wasn't even looking so how could he have known that they touched hands? Aren't you only supposed to call what you see and not what you think you saw?

I noticed that as well. And during the subsequent argument with the Rangers, the ump made a shoving gesture with both hands, as if that's what he saw.

[Fatter than Joey]

You can't touch a guy while the ball is live. Period. There really isn't any room in the rules for a gray area there, in my opinion.

 

This is not true. A coach can touch a player when the ball is live -- this happens all the time. The rules do not state anything about the "ball being live", but clearly state that the coach has to "physically assist" the runner in returning (in this case) to 3b. I was at a HS game where the team batting hit a walk-off single, and as the batter returned to first the coach gave him a high-five while the play was being made at the plate. The coach of the team in the field tried to get the batter called out at first, but the umpire correctly asserted that the coach did not "assist" the runner in any sort of physical manner.

 

but what if the 3b coach grabbed his hand to help him stop?

 

Then clearly he would be out. There is a difference between "touching" and "grabbing" or "pushing" (using your Morgan/Rodriguez example), grabbing a player is assisting them, touching them is not.

 

Curious, was he safe on the dive back to third base anyway? It looked pretty close.

 

He looked safe to me, as the 3b touched the base with the glove before he touched the runner.

 

2. When they showed the replay, the umpire wasn't even looking so how could he have known that they touched hands? Aren't you only supposed to call what you see and not what you think you saw?

 

When I watched the reply -- I noticed when the umpire comes into the screen, he is pointing at the baserunner, before the play at the base is made. I *think* that he called the runner out before the throw at third was made. He clearly had no interest in calling the runner out on the throw.

 

I think Marquez boned this call -- but it is somewhat defensible.

[dadofandrew]

The ump saw it in his peripheral vision. I did not see an assist, so I would have ignored it.

[azcheesehead]

As a high school baseball coach, Ron Washington, Michael Young, and Dave Anderson all have a legitimate reason to be upset. Discretion calls like that are what can potentially drive us nuts. Having that be a game deciding call makes it even worse. I don't know how you can honestly say that Anderson was physically assisting is ridiculous. To the question at the top of this thread, some of baseball's "best" have had a rough 12 months. I heard Tim Tischida address the abundance of umpiring errors at a coache's clinic last February. If you recal,l his crew really blew a call down the LF line against the Twins in the Yankees series of the ALDS. WITH Twins GM Bill Smith among those at the clinic he said that umpires are human and make mistakes just like anyone else. He then likened it to the Vikings "12 men in the huddle." In my opinion I didn't think it was a very good reason seeing he is paid a lot of money to be correct, and in a big position like the ALDS nonetheless.

[TooLiveBrew]

Umps are human, and will make mistakes... which is why MLB should ditch the demagoguery with instant replay & start really planning how to implement it more thoroughly.

 

You just can't win in a job where you are regarded as always having to be right. You don't see fans out there celebrating great calls that umpires make, the only things that get discussed are the blown ones. It's a completely hypocritical stance that we as fans take. I think more instant replay would not only help correct missed calls, it would underscore just how good the umps usually are.

[trwi7]

It seems the obvious thing for replay is to have a judge up in the press box. When there's a questionable call play is stopped and the crew chief goes to the home team's dugout to wait for a call from the judge in the press box on whether or not the call is right or wrong. If it's too close to call, the call stands.

 

And before anyone says it adds time to the game. That would literally take less than a minute to do. Right when the play is questioned, time is called, judge immediately watches the replay, phones down to crew chief who confirms the call. Easy, should take no more than 1.5 minutes and probably less than that.

[TooLiveBrew]

And before anyone says it adds time to the game. That would literally take less than a minute to do. Right when the play is questioned, time is called, judge immediately watches the replay, phones down to crew chief who confirms the call. Easy, should take no more than 1.5 minutes and probably less than that.

 

This is part of what I meant when I said I'd like to see MLB get away from demagoguery. The 'It's going to make games longer!' argument drives me insane. Lord knows we'd rather have games be 2 minutes shorter rather than get calls correct.

[milwaukeesportsfan]

The thing that drives me nuts about the NFL instant replay is that it takes forever because the ref has to watch the replay himself. Why? For as long as it takes for the ref to look under the hood and sit there watching the replay over and over, they might as well poll the audience. They could install voting keypads on the backs of every seat in every NFL stadium, and that would probably be quicker than the current system. Of course that wouldn't work in Lambeau because there are no seat backs. Maybe a verbal vote over the PA. All those in favor of safe? Opposed? The "I's" have it. Safe is the call.

 

If they go to replay in MLB, they should definitely not go the NFL route. I like leaving it up to somebody in the booth. Don't they have replacement umpires that can be replay officials? Maybe they could rotate so that every 5th day, you're in the booth doing replay.

[endaround]

The thing that drives me nuts about the NFL instant replay is that it takes forever because the ref has to watch the replay himself. Why? For as long as it takes for the ref to look under the hood and sit there watching the replay over and over, they might as well poll the audience. They could install voting keypads on the backs of every seat in every NFL stadium, and that would probably be quicker than the current system. Of course that wouldn't work in Lambeau because there are no seat backs. Maybe a verbal vote over the PA. All those in favor of safe? Opposed? The "I's" have it. Safe is the call.

 

If they go to replay in MLB, they should definitely not go the NFL route. I like leaving it up to somebody in the booth. Don't they have replacement umpires that can be replay officials? Maybe they could rotate so that every 5th day, you're in the booth doing replay.

The Big Ten seems to have perfected instant replay. Since the MLB crew rotates every game you're less likely to get into the NFL place where the head official must make the call sine he is "in charge"

[young guns]

When there's a questionable call play is stopped and the crew chief goes to the home team's dugout to wait for a call from the judge in the press box on whether or not the call is right or wrong.

Instead of the home team dugout, he should just go into the dugout of the team that got "hosed". That way we can also save time on the manager coming out to complain about the call for 2 minutes.

[RU Rah Rah]

That way we can also save time on the manager coming out to complain about the call for 2 minutes.

Yeah, I think you can make the argument that an economical replay process would be a net time-saver if it cut down on longer arguments.

[RobertR]

I'll be in the minority, but I think it was the right call according to the rule.

 

The rule is that the coach may not assist the runner. Period. Not, assist the runner enough to make it back when he otherwise would have been out. I'm willing to agree that the degree of help in breaking the runner's momentum was infinitesimal and didn't make a difference between safe and out, but I'm quite o.k. with setting the bar at "infinitesimal". There's really no reason for a coach to ever touch a runner while there's a play going on and setting the bar that low discourages it and makes judgement easy.

 

Robert

[azcheesehead]

Tschida's crew still sucks. This job tonight will be remembered.

[Baldkin]

I was watching, without sound on, so I'm not sure how many guys got tossed out...

 

I saw 4, plus the fan?

[TooLiveBrew]

Macha got tossed, then Duncan, then Patterson, then the fan.

[dadofandrew]

Just when those in hell were celebrating the fact they got to see a MLB game, they found out who the umpires were, and once again, suffered for past indiscretions. One was heard to say, "Just when I thought it couldn't get worse."

 

Imagine if it would have been hot tonight.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

Macha got tossed, then Duncan, then Patterson, then the fan.

Corey Patterson still plays for us?

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

[hawing]

Macha got tossed, then Duncan, then Patterson, then the fan.

I was going to say, epic slip of the keyboard there. And if you did that on purpose, you apologize to Chris Dickerson right now, young man!