Brewers recall Gamel, Villanueva, and Jeffress [Latest: Gamel needs toe surgery]

[3Putt]

Yes, small sample size and the numbers aren't terrible. And yes, he hasn't had enough of an extended period to make a case either way. That's my point. I'm not ready to assume he's part of the post Prince/Weeks line up just yet.

[greeg35]

He's put up good numbers in 702 PA's at the AAA level...

.293

.375

.489

.864

there's some evidence to support including him as a part of that lineup. Not a be all, end all; but better than going on a small sample size of extremely part-time at bats for bad stats like RISP and late game AB's.

[3Putt]

I'd still like to see those AAA stats show themselves at the big club level before I assume Gamel can be penciled in if others go. You're not big on the small Brewer sample and I'm not impressed by AAA stats. It's still a big leap to the big league club.

[logan82]

I'd still like to see those AAA stats show themselves at the big club level before I assume Gamel can be penciled in if others go. You're not big on the small Brewer sample and I'm not impressed by AAA stats. It's still a big leap to the big league club.

 

Those numbers are exactly why we can pencil him in the MLB lineup. If we waited until a guy proved himself at the MLB level we would be constantly trading minor leaguers for major leaguers and signing free agents.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd still like to see those AAA stats show themselves at the big club level before I assume Gamel can be penciled in if others go.

 

How do you feel about Escobar & Lucroy? Because they were nowhere close to being the kind of hitter Gamel has been in the minors, and have showed next to nothing at the MLB level. Gamel is an .800 OPS, OPB-heavy bat right now. And I believe he's going to be better than that.

 

At this point I've given up caring where the Brewers will play him, I just want to see him in the everyday lineup. He's the kind of hitter you imagine in a hypothetical, 'What type of hitter is this lineup missing?' question. If the Brewers decide to retain Prince for '10, there are going to be numerous suggestions of LH hitting, high-OBP type bats for the OF or corner IF around here (think Damon, etc.). The Brewers already have him, & he's available for the league-minimum salary. I'm starting to think he's going to be traded this offseason, though.

[3Putt]

Escobar & Lucroy play the two most important defensive positions and they've played them relatively well given their inexperience. What position(s) would you pencil Gamel in at?

[TooLiveBrew]

Either corner IF spot or corner OF spot. Hart & Braun make it pretty clear there's probably not room in the OF, but if the Brewers decide to keep Fielder either McGehee or Gamel will probably be traded. If McGehee goes, Gamel takes over at 3B. If Fielder goes, Gamel/McGehee handle the corner IF spots.

[gregmag]

The only way a guy can truly prove himself at the major league level is to play there. Gamel has proved himself a very good hitter at AAA. He has shown in a small but not meaningless number of MLB PAs that he can hold his own under bad conditions (playing irregularly). He's still young enough to get better. The Brewers need a hitter and could plug him into the lineup in a number of ways. Why in the world wouldn't we put him in the lineup?

[3Putt]

Gamel has had issues at 3B in the past. If OF isn't an option he'll need a quick primer at 1B because he played the position a grand total of 2 games in 2010. Still, I agree he's earned a shot but I don't see a logical position. My vote would be 1B so our infielders would finally have a decent sized target. Of course trades may make this whole discussion moot depending on what positions open up.

[thebruce44]

Gamel has had issues at 3B in the past....Still, I agree he's earned a shot but I don't see a logical position.

I know we have gone over this a lot in the past, but in my opinion, and I know others share it, Gamel is already as good as McGehee at 3B with upside. Depending on how trades shake out, I think he has a logical position at 3B.

[Oxy]

I know we have gone over this a lot in the past, but in my opinion, and I know others share it, Gamel is already as good as McGehee at 3B with upside. Depending on how trades shake out, I think he has a logical position at 3B.

I assume that you mean Gamel is as good as McGehee at defense (which is a comparison neither player should be particularly proud of)? McGehee was the most consistent hitter the Brewers had this year, and I get the impression that he provided a stability in the locker room as well as the lineup. To not only think that Gamel would meet McGehee's production, but exceed it seems like quite a stretch.

 

While I love the Brewers homegrown talent, I try to stay as objective as possible when looking at actual production. After lurking here for many years, I have often gotten the feeling that sometimes people's desire to follow a player's career from the day they were drafted all the way through until they flourish in the Big League's sometimes clouds their evaluation of a player's actual production and talent level. The corollary to that is that when the Brewers acquire a player "off the scrap heap" sometimes he gets treated like scrap--regardless of the circumstances of the acquisition and his subsequent production. McGehee is the prime example. Despite almost 2 full years of OPSing over .800 with almost unfathomable consistency at the major league level, many people still think it's a fluke since he never OPSed over .800 in the minors, and especially since he didn't do it for a Brewer's farm club.

 

Ask yourself--if McGehee was a 4th round draft pick for the Brewers 7 years ago, worked his way through an unspectacular minor league career, but won a spot with the club out of spring training and continued to have the success that he has had the last two years, would you still think Gamel is a better option with more upside?

 

To be clear, I love Gamel's upside as well, just not at the expense of Casey. I just think that if anybody has earned a right to his position it is McGehee (unless Gamel suddenly becomes a gold glover).

 

Also--thank you to all the moderators and administrators for running the best sports message board on the internet, and for allowing me to be a part of your community.

[trwi7]

McGehee was the most consistent hitter the Brewers had this year

Not even close.

 

OPS by month.

 

April: .946

May: .824

June: 657

July: .716

August: .934

September: .711

October: 1.000

 

[logan82]

Ask yourself--if McGehee was a 4th round draft pick for the Brewers 7 years ago, worked his way through an unspectacular minor league career, but won a spot with the club out of spring training and continued to have the success that he has had the last two years, would you still think Gamel is a better option with more upside?

 

Yes. McGehee hasn't exactly put up great numbers. He has a career .342/.464/.812 MLB line. He had a .337/.464/.801 line this year. I think Gamel can at least match McGehee's numbers from this year. Probably with a better OBP.

[Oxy]

McGehee was the most consistent hitter the Brewers had this year

Not even close.

 

OPS by month.

 

April: .946

May: .824

June: 657

July: .716

August: .934

September: .711

October: 1.000

Look at lefty-righty splits and batting with men on base as well. Also, while I did say this year, I meant to put more of an emphasis over the course of his (albeit short) 2 year career and compare that to anybody not named Braun or Fielder over the course of their career. Although even this year, Braun had that atrocious June and July and Fielder couldn't hit lefties or with guys on base. Weeks' career has obviously been marred by injury and inconsistency (hopefully no more), and there were few hitters in the league who looked worse than Hart at times in the past few years (again, hopefully no more). Casey has done nothing of hit, consistently make routine defensive plays, keep his mouth shut, and even play through injury ever since he's been in the bigs. I'll take him.

[TooLiveBrew]

Weeks & Hart were both by far more consistent hitters this season than McGehee, and better hitters overall. I won't begrudge you liking McGehee, but he was neither the best nor most consistent hitter not named Braun or Fielder this season (or over his 1+ year career). And I'll take Fielder being able to destroy RHP over McGehee being able to destroy LHP since hitters face RHP 2/3 - 4/3 of the time.

[MNBrew]

Oxy, I think your assertions about McGehee and his value are spot on.

 

Per some folks' opinions 'round here, this is an inherently dis-credible position to side with, but I also put stock in this: It tells me something when Witrado, himself at least attentive to some advanced metrics, believes (per his last JSOnline chat) that Gamel, defensively, is not a major league third baseman. I'm admittedly not into "deep" stats, but I know Gamel is an error machine and that hasn't changed greatly. Some here, though, would point to his UZR and suggest he's a good defensive 3B because of his range. To me, unless a guy's feet are permanently stuck in concrete blocks, I think it's more advantageous to have a guy who makes the plays. And that's something Casey generally does, and which Gamel's history indicates he generally doesn't.

 

But I'm not agreeing just about his defense. I agree w/ your assertions of his whole game. He's not a media-magnet type of player like Braun or Fielder, or a top draft pick "ace" prospect like Weeks. But he's the type of guy any team needs, and the Brewers are fortunate to have him -- not to mention that he's also still under team control for another 4 years.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'm admittedly not into "deep" stats, but I know Gamel is an error machine and that hasn't changed greatly. Some here, though, would point to his UZR and suggest he's a good defensive 3B because of his range.

 

Gamel doesn't have a good UZR, and isn't liked by any advanced defensive metric I've seen (but then again he hasn't logged anywhere near enough MLB innings for any stat to describe his ability in a useful manner). My belief in him, in terms of defense, is in his physical tools. Weeks is a very useful comparison -- raw guy, but good upside.

[thebruce44]

MNBrew[/b]]Per some folks' opinions 'round here, this is an inherently dis-credible position to side with, but I also put stock in this: It tells me something when Witrado, himself at least attentive to some advanced metrics, believes (per his last JSOnline chat) that Gamel, defensively, is not a major league third baseman. I'm admittedly not into "deep" stats, but I know Gamel is an error machine and that hasn't changed greatly. Some here, though, would point to his UZR and suggest he's a good defensive 3B because of his range. To me, unless a guy's feet are permanently stuck in concrete blocks, I think it's more advantageous to have a guy who makes the plays. And that's something Casey generally does, and which Gamel's history indicates he generally doesn't.

Do you have a link to this chat or can you post what Witrado said in this thread? Sorry, I am really having trouble following your line of thought and I guess I am not sure whats your opinion and whats Witrado's.

[ramssuperbowl99]

Ask yourself--if McGehee was a 4th round draft pick for the Brewers 7 years ago, worked his way through an unspectacular minor league career, but won a spot with the club out of spring training and continued to have the success that he has had the last two years, would you still think Gamel is a better option with more upside?

 

Yes. McGehee hasn't exactly put up great numbers. He has a career .342/.464/.812 MLB line. He had a .337/.464/.801 line this year. I think Gamel can at least match McGehee's numbers from this year. Probably with a better OBP.

Something else worth mentioning is that if Gamel can essentially replace McGehee at 3rd, McGehee immediately becomes trade bait. The 100 RBI season did wonders for his value, especially in the minds of some of the more non-SABR GM's out there. Add in "positional versatility", "clutch hitting" and 4 more years under team control and that's an enticing player. If we could get a good prospect for McGehee, plug in Gamel in at 3rd and not lose much production, that's a huge win for the Brewers.

[rluzinski]

per speculation of course but I think MLB GMs know better than to over-weight RBIs and wins these days.

[ramssuperbowl99]

per speculation of course but I think MLB GMs know better than to over-weight RBIs and wins these days.

I'd think so too, then you see Dan Haren dealt for a package headlined by Joe Saunders and the Arizona GM citing Saunders' win total. Obviously we wouldn't be hoodwinking Theo Epstein or Billy Beane, but Ed Wade, Brian Sabean, Omar Minaya - I'd say we could fleece those kind of guys.

EDIT: Another glaring example is the Howard extension. Amaro Jr. cited Howard's RBI totals and defended them even when told he is a product of Utley and Co.

[thebruce44]

Oxy[/b]]

thebruce44[/b]]I know we have gone over this a lot in the past, but in my opinion, and I know others share it, Gamel is already as good as McGehee at 3B with upside. Depending on how trades shake out, I think he has a logical position at 3B.

While I love the Brewers homegrown talent, I try to stay as objective as possible when looking at actual production. After lurking here for many years, I have often gotten the feeling that sometimes people's desire to follow a player's career from the day they were drafted all the way through until they flourish in the Big League's sometimes clouds their evaluation of a player's actual production and talent level. The corollary to that is that when the Brewers acquire a player "off the scrap heap" sometimes he gets treated like scrap--regardless of the circumstances of the acquisition and his subsequent production. McGehee is the prime example. Despite almost 2 full years of OPSing over .800 with almost unfathomable consistency at the major league level, many people still think it's a fluke since he never OPSed over .800 in the minors, and especially since he didn't do it for a Brewer's farm club.

I can really only speak for myself, but I don't think I am in any way bias against McGehee because he wasn't in our farm system. Casey is one of my favorite players and I still get chills just thinking about him yelling into his helmet in the dugout after that dramatic homerun following an error last year. I love the passion that he plays with and the story about him making it to where he is today.

 

At the same time, I am trying to be realistic about the situation. As such, I feel Gamel is the better option and the outside factors (which you suggest promote Mat) are the only reason people think McGehee is the better. I see the media's slant on the situation as much more influential than who came up in what farm system. While you see me and other posters here as letting that backstory be our bias, I see the media biasing your opinion.

 

In the end, all we have is their actual play. As I discussed in my previous post, and as has been gone over on this board many times, I feel as though Mat is as productive as McGehee right now with much more upside. I'd expect a much more OBP heavy .800+ ops out of Gamel on offense and equal defense next year if Gamel was the starter instead of McGehee. While you seem to think that might be a stretch, I don't think it is at all.

[MNBrew]

MNBrew[/b]]Per some folks' opinions 'round here, this is an inherently dis-credible position to side with, but I also put stock in this: It tells me something when Witrado, himself at least attentive to some advanced metrics, believes (per his last JSOnline chat) that Gamel, defensively, is not a major league third baseman. I'm admittedly not into "deep" stats, but I know Gamel is an error machine and that hasn't changed greatly. Some here, though, would point to his UZR and suggest he's a good defensive 3B because of his range. To me, unless a guy's feet are permanently stuck in concrete blocks, I think it's more advantageous to have a guy who makes the plays. And that's something Casey generally does, and which Gamel's history indicates he generally doesn't.

Do you have a link to this chat or can you post what Witrado said in this thread? Sorry, I am really having trouble following your line of thought and I guess I am not sure whats your opinion and whats Witrado's.

Simply responding...

 

LINK as requested

Q:

 

rich,

 

green lake, wi

- Hey Anthony,

 

I've heard talk of moving either Hart or McGee to first if the Brewers

indeed trade Fielder and giving RF or 3B to Gamel. Is Brewers brass

seriously comfortable with that? As a fan I Know I'm not. Success in

the minors is one thing, but Gamel has showed next to nothing with the

big club.

A: Anthony Witrado

- McGehee won't move off third and Hart could possibly

move to first if Gamel isn't the answer there. Also, if they move parts

this winter, it's possible another first baseman or RF comes back to

them in a trade aside from the pitching they seek. One thing is certain:

Gamel won't play 3B at this level.

You can see Witrado's opinion underlined above. I'm putting stock in the eye-witness observations of a beat writer whose perspectives some around here say can't possibly have an ounce of credibility (presumably in the sabermetric sense). My opinion is that errors aren't meaningless and defensively I'd prefer McGehee at 3B over Gamel because of Gamel's large error totals and because McGehee more consistently makes the plays.

[Invader3K]

I think the team is sold on McGehee as the 3B at this point. There has been some speculation and rumors that the team may offer him a long term contract soon. I think Gamel either ends up at 1B/RF or gets dealt. Just my hunch.

[thebruce44]

MNBrew[/b]]Per some folks' opinions 'round here, this is an inherently dis-credible position to side with, but I also put stock in this: It tells me something when Witrado, himself at least attentive to some advanced metrics, believes (per his last JSOnline chat) that Gamel, defensively, is not a major league third baseman. I'm admittedly not into "deep" stats, but I know Gamel is an error machine and that hasn't changed greatly. Some here, though, would point to his UZR and suggest he's a good defensive 3B because of his range. To me, unless a guy's feet are permanently stuck in concrete blocks, I think it's more advantageous to have a guy who makes the plays. And that's something Casey generally does, and which Gamel's history indicates he generally doesn't.

Do you have a link to this chat or can you post what Witrado said in this thread? Sorry, I am really having trouble following your line of thought and I guess I am not sure whats your opinion and whats Witrado's.

Simply responding...

 

LINK as requested

Q:

 

rich,

 

green lake, wi

- Hey Anthony,

 

I've heard talk of moving either Hart or McGee to first if the Brewers

indeed trade Fielder and giving RF or 3B to Gamel. Is Brewers brass

seriously comfortable with that? As a fan I Know I'm not. Success in

the minors is one thing, but Gamel has showed next to nothing with the

big club.

A: Anthony Witrado

- McGehee won't move off third and Hart could possibly

move to first if Gamel isn't the answer there. Also, if they move parts

this winter, it's possible another first baseman or RF comes back to

them in a trade aside from the pitching they seek. One thing is certain:

Gamel won't play 3B at this level.

You can see Witrado's opinion underlined above. I'm putting stock in the eye-witness observations of a beat writer whose perspectives some around here say can't possibly have an ounce of credibility (presumably in the sabermetric sense). My opinion is that errors aren't meaningless and defensively I'd prefer McGehee at 3B over Gamel because of Gamel's large error totals and because McGehee more consistently makes the plays.

Thanks for the link.

 

To that, I respond that I don't think Witrado has much credibility here not because of any saber sense at all, but because he has seen Gamel play at 3B as much as I have (62 chances total over the last 2 years). Hardly enough to say one way or another. The fact that Witrado uses the word "certain" furthers my opinion that he just doesn't like the kid.

 

I don't think there are any sabermetric issues to discuss here at all, so I guess I still don't understand what you are getting at there.