Strasburg hurt again; Update: Will need Tommy John surgery

[homer]

So when did "inverted W" become the topic du jour? A few years ago? It wasn't when Prior was drafted thats for sure. Everything I read at that time said his mechanics were perfect.

 

And additionally....would you take a guy with inverted W if it would give you three years of awesomeness knowing that he'd miss the next year plus with an elbow issue. Or would you rather have a guy who will be average for several years but might not get hurt based on his mechanics (but ended up getting hurt a lot anyway.....but you don't know that going in):

 

Put another way, is it better to burn out or fade away???

 

http://media.jsonline.com/images/ap-dodgers-brewers-baseballa.jpg

[Baldkin]

Paraphrasing from fangraphs chat yesterday:

 

Q: How do you feel about the whole "inverted W" thing?

A (Dave Cameron): No one has ever been able to predict injuries accurately. They just happen. Until someone predicts them instead of saying "See, he's hurt, inverted W!" the whole thing just needs to go away.

 

It's like Nostradamus. You say enough stuff, some of it will be true after the fact. That doesn't mean you're able to tell the future. Saying a pitcher will get hurt about enough pitchers is bound to be true some of the time, because... well... pitchers get hurt.

[sveumrules]

I spent like two hours reading around on chrisoleary.com last night and he has some really accessible, easy to digest information pertaining to pitching mechanics. Definitely recommend it to anyone interested in learning more about the topic.

[thebruce44]

Keep in mind that while Strasburg's mechanics have always drawn some skeptics, Prior's were always considered to be crystal clean.

 

Prior came from the USC inverted W school of mechanics, though, right?

Yup. Prior's was much worse, but Strasburg certainly has some characteristics of an inverted W.

 

I remember expressing concern over Bush's inverted W 2-3 years ago on here and basically being laughed at. I have no doubt that's what has contributed to his decrease in velocity.

The inverted W caused him to take a line drive off the triceps?

 

 

[Gobias Industries]

You guys seriously think a line drive that him over a year ago is still affecting him now?

 

I think he should be healed from that by now. If not, it's pretty much prematurely ended his career, and I can't think of any other similar circumstances.

[thebruce44]

You guys seriously think a line drive that him over a year ago is still affecting him now?

 

I think he should be healed from that by now. If not, it's pretty much prematurely ended his career, and I can't think of any other similar circumstances.

Bush's avg FA velocity pre May 14th 2009: 88.4

Bush's avg FA velocity post May 14th 2009: 87.0

 

I don't know much about this inverted W, but you have to admit that would be quite a coincidence if the W was what caused his decrease in velocity like you believe even though he tore his triceps right when his velocity decreased.

[Diskono]

Completely off-topic, but why not just call it "M"?

[hurricanecrush]

Completely off-topic, but why not just call it "M"?

I was thinking the same thing...

[CheezWizHed]

Ok, I'll show my ignorance and ask... what is the inverted W?

[PrinceEatMeat]

Just heard on SportsCenter, Strasburg tore his ulnar collateral ligament in his elbow and needs Tommy John. Looks like he'll miss next season too. Tough break for him and the Nats.

[brains and braun]

Wow is that brutal....not even a full season in. Can't even imagine their disappointment.

[trwi7]

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedW_MarkPrior_002.jpg

 

http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/Images/Examples/Example_InvertedW_AnthonyReyes_2006_048.jpg

 

 

 

CheezWizHed wrote:

---

Ok, I'll show my ignorance and ask... what is the inverted W?

This is a term used to describe the position of a pitcher's arms as he picks up the baseball during the cocking phase of a pitch.

In the Inverted W, the pitcher picks up both of his elbows above his shoulders. Each arm resembles an upside-down 'V', so it is called an inverted 'W'.

Some people have asked why it isn't called an inverted 'M'. This is not just a font-based issue. The key here is not the 'W,' it is the inverted position of the arm. The 'W' is just a method of describing the inversion. Simply calling this an 'M' does not do justice to the inversion of the arm in this and similar positions.

[crewcrazy]

Ok, I'll show my ignorance and ask... what is the inverted W?

It's a way to describe the position of a pitcher's arms as he approaches home plate. Here's a pretty extensive article on the Inverted W, with plenty of pictures and diagrams if you scroll down. It's somewhat of a controversial issue -- some people (like the one who wrote the linked article) think it's a huge factor in pitchers getting hurt, while others like to point out the flaws of the Inverted W argument.

 

This is certainly disappointing considering how the Nats handled him, but I don't think there was much they could've done to prevent this, as it seems like this all happened after a single pitch. Pitchers get hurt, and luckily Strasburg is young enough that this doesn't seem like it will have a huge negative effect going forward. He'll be fine if he does get the surgery, Nats fans will just have to wait until this time next year to see him.

[Invader3K]

Yeah, I feel bad for Nationals fans. Finally a really stud pitcher to get excited about, and now this.

 

I don't blame the Nats for how they handled Strasburg at all, though. Injuries happen, especially to pitchers.

[RightFieldCoder]

www.chrisoleary.com

 

Normally, the elbows are below the shoulder. This creates a W shape. Putting the elbows above the shoulders changes the shape to an inverted W.

 

Tough break for the Nats.

[homer]

Not sure what the Nats could have done differently. Even if they had shut him down after the first issue I bet this would have popped up next spring. Some guys just get hurt.

 

I wonder what Dr. Marshall thinks about the inverted W theory?

[pitchleague]

yeah, I thought the Nationals did everything right. They limited his innings, they already had him on the DL once to make sure he didn't push things, they took him out immediately this time as well. What can you do? It sure stinks, though.

 

I know that I am no longer believing the scouts, prognosticators, and other know-it-alls when they say, "this guy has perfect mechanics and will probably stay injury-free because of it." Mark Prior? BUZZZZ! Kerry Wood? BUZZZZ! Stephen Strasburg? BUZZZZ! No more of me listening to those "experts."

[homer]

I wonder if Rob Dibble and John Kruk still think he needs to suck it up and go pitch?

[thebruce44]

yeah, I thought the Nationals did everything right. They limited his innings, they already had him on the DL once to make sure he didn't push things, they took him out immediately this time as well. What can you do? It sure stinks, though.

 

I know that I am no longer believing the scouts, prognosticators, and other know-it-alls when they say, "this guy has perfect mechanics and will probably stay injury-free because of it." Mark Prior? BUZZZZ! Kerry Wood? BUZZZZ! Stephen Strasburg? BUZZZZ! No more of me listening to those "experts."

 

Nitpicking, but I am curious. I thought there was some serious questions on Woods mechanics.

[TooLiveBrew]

Just as listing a resource on this stuff, I usually enjoy reading the stuff at Driveline Mechanics. Looks like the site is down for now, to be rebooted soon (or so it says). Agree on the Chris O'Leary's The Pitching Mechanic, good stuff there.

[Hofbraunhaus]

Disappointing news, especially for Nats fans. He really has unbelievable stuff and I hope he is able to return to form after his recovery.

[CheezWizHed]

Man, why is it always the Brewers that have pitching injuries???

 

I know that I am no longer believing the scouts, prognosticators, and

other know-it-alls when they say, "this guy has perfect mechanics and

will probably stay injury-free because of it." Mark Prior? BUZZZZ!

Kerry Wood? BUZZZZ! Stephen Strasburg? BUZZZZ! No more of me

listening to those "experts."

 

Mike Jones...

 

Also, thanks for the inverted W explanation.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I think Strasburg's injury just goes to show how tough it is for pitchers to stay healthy...the human body isn't designed to throw a baseball overhand, much less at 100 mph. I don't think the Nats could have done anything differently to prevent Strasburg from getting hurt. While I believe that mechanics and limited pitch counts are important with preventing injuries, I think the biggest factor is just how many bullets a pitcher has in his arm - I think it's something that's genetic and differs greatly among pitchers. There are guidelines (pitch counts, yearly innings limits, etc) that can help to prolong arm injuries from happening, but I think genetics make them inevitable for certain pitchers.

 

This also speaks to just how risky it is to select a pitcher so high in the amateur draft, no matter how talented he appears to be.

 

It seems nowadays that pitchers get hurt much more often than in the past, which brings up the old school thought of 4 man rotations and increased throwing programs to build up arm strength - However, there were probably just as many if not more pitching careers damaged by injuries back in the day, it's just that once a pitcher hurt his arm back then he was done and never heard from again...no reliable surgeries to repair damage.

[pitchleague]

Nitpicking, but I am curious. I thought there was some serious questions on Woods mechanics.

yeah, you know, I might be wrong about Wood now that you mention it. But there was somebody else besides Prior in the last 10 years or so that I remember had the "perfect mechanics" label put on him and then, wham! he's out with Tommy John and never the same. Maybe it was Mulder?

[Funketown]

I wonder if Rob Dibble and John Kruk still think he needs to suck it up and go pitch?

Probably. This is the same John Kruk who toughed his way through an entire 152 games in the 1991 season.

 

Kruk and Dibble are two of the biggest oafs on TV today (putting it nicely), and that's definitely saying something.