Utility Prospects...

[HiAndTight]

With a big league team that seemingly has very few openings over the next few years for guys trying to earn starting as a result of having so many young kids already entrenched, or ticketed for Milwaukee;

Gamel 1st/3rd or RF

Braun LF

Cain CF

Hart RF/1B

Weeks 2B

Lucroy C

Escobar SS

 

And Brett Lawrie at one of the remaining positions accounting for all 8 positions, I'm wondering why the Brewers seem reluctant to start trying to develop a couple of these younger guys who look to be solid big league prospects as utility players?

 

Eric Farris is obviously the first one that comes to mind. As a exceptional Base Stealer, and a young kid who was on his way to putting together a very impressive season for a guy who skipped right over AA in order to accommodate Brett Lawrie before a knee injury interrupted his season.

Still, he's come back and is hitting for a nice Batting Average, and despite paltry OBP numbers at the moment and a less than impressive OPS, he does at least look like a kid who could be a very useful reserve. A guy who could come in off the bench and pinch run, a contact hitter with very good speed, and a guy who last year at BC put together a .298/.351 line with 70 SB's.

 

Another and the most important one to my way of thinking if Taylor Green. I've been a huge, huge Green fan for a while, not because he's going to be a star, but because he's the type of player that I think it's very important to have. He profiles as a near ideal #2 hitter, and in my opinion, a very, very similar player to Mark Loretta, except for a LH'ed version with a little bit more power.

He obviously was initially a 2nd basemen before moving over to 3rd, and while I realize he does not project to have the requisite quickness to be an everyday SS at the big league level, I don't see the harm in playing him there at least occasionally to get him used to it.

He's a guy I'd love to see getting 350 AB's for the Brewers in a couple years(provided he continues to develop, and I see no reason why he wouldn't) playing all over the place for the Brewers. 2B, 3B, LF, RF, 1B and in case of injury, even playing SS.

 

Being able to pocket the 2-3 million dollars spent on guys like Craig Counsell by developing your own utility guys is just another way(along with all the BP arms we've got) to save money for more important area's on the team.

 

So, being a LH'ed bat who has sensational K/BB ratio's, who draws walks(11% for career), who hits for some power, but who's almost certainly blocked in the big picture with Rickie Weeks, Mat Gamel, and Brett Lawrie covering 2nd and 3rd base, it doesn't make sense that he isn't moved around quite a bit more.

Other guys moving forward who look like they could be very good utility guys would be Cutter Dykstra and Scooter Gennett, though I like Scooter as a big league regular, Luis Cruz in AAA, although he's a bit older, Zealous Wheeler(the one guy they actually ARE moving around).

[clancyphile]

I've long considered Green to be a left-handed Cirillo, and often saw him as a reason to move Gamel to the OF or 1B.

 

That said, Weeks may or may not re-sign as a free agent. Hart's extension isn't that long-term, either. And Escobar's offense has regressed significantly from last year, not that a .701 OPS was much to brag about.

[Never Outhustled]

Green is a very average 3B, he certainly isn't a SS. He's nothing like Cirillo or Loretta. He's very similar to Tyler Houston. Short and squatty, with a quick but stiff lefthanded stroke. They are grooming Zealous Wheeler as a utility guy. Eric Farris has always been a low OPS guy, he's not a prospect.

[sveumrules]

I definitely have a soft spot for Zelous. Between the name and the build how can you not pull for this guy. He has the same career OPS as Schafer. Who's who? 350/420 | 369/401?

[battlekow]

They are grooming Zealous Wheeler as a utility guy. Eric Farris has always been a low OPS guy, he's not a prospect.

Yeah, a point in Wheeler's favor is that he actually plays shortstop, however well. Farris's future depends on what else he can do. If he can play third base and some outfield, he could have a utility career. As long as he's only playing second base, he's going to be doing it at AAA.

[gregmag]

Everything I have ever seen or heard about Farris suggests that he's strictly a 2b. If all you can do is play 2b, then you have to start to help the team. Even if it turns out Farris can play CF (which seems a likelier pleasant surprise than ss or 3b), his overall offensive game looks like too much of a liability to make him useful. That said, he keeps hitting for a high average and stealing bases, and if somehow he really is a .290-hitting 2b/CF at the MLB level, then he'll have a career. I just don't see the evidence at this point.

 

But HiAndTight makes a great point overall. We've talked about this with the bullpen as well -- good homegrown options at non-glamor spots have great value. The Brewers definitely seem to take Wheeler seriously as a utility prospect, and I agree that Green fits into that category as well. Green has not flashed Loretta-Cirillo ability to this point, but he hits enough and has enough versatility to help off the bench if he stays on course. Actually, it's still possible that Casey McGehee could end up as a supersub. He's roasting the doubters now, but I don't think we can rule out the possibility that he regresses to a sub-.750 OPS. If he does, our best lineup as soon as a year from now might turn out to be something like:

 

c Lucroy

1b Hart

2b Weeks

3b Lawrie

ss Escobar

lf Braun

cf Cain

rf Gamel

 

The Brewers still have, I believe, four years of control with McGehee. The question then becomes what an arbitrator would do with a guy who was already falling off his peak. I am in no way saying this to hate on McGehee -- he has done nothing but put runs on the board since he got here, and he's a solid regular until and unless he drops off. I'm just thinking that it wouldn't be completely weird for him to end up in the utility discussion.

[JohnBriggs12]

They are grooming Zealous Wheeler as a utility guy. Eric Farris has always been a low OPS guy, he's not a prospect.

Yeah, a point in Wheeler's favor is that he actually plays shortstop, however well. Farris's future depends on what else he can do. If he can play third base and some outfield, he could have a utility career. As long as he's only playing second base, he's going to be doing it at AAA.

Wheeler's made 28 errors in 81 games at SS. Farris was voted the top defensive 2B in the Florida State League last year. He's played a handful of games at SS and made 1 error in 40 chances. I'm sure he'd be better than Wheeler there too. The difference in OPS is overrated. Farris has 133 career SB and only been caught 22 times. That and the fact that Farris was jumped 2 levels this past year tells me he's more highly regarded than Wheeler, never mind Farris was a 4th round pick the same year Wheeler was taken in the 19th round.

[Never Outhustled]

That and the fact that Farris was jumped 2 levels this past year tells me he's more highly regarded than Wheeler,

Farris was sent to Nashville because he didn't have a starting spot at Huntesville. Farris has been a little overmatched at AAA. Farris might be a great basestealer, but you can't steal 1st.

[molitor fan]

X, your view on Farris has always confused me....a guy batting .290 with a 700 Ops and elite level speed - (70 for 76 is just silly) in AAA while playing highly regarded defense is a bigtime asset. I mean, that is just a fact.

 

And Wheeler errors are pretty startling in totality, but I love that guys game. He has some power, speed, patience and versatility - what is not to like. Taylor Green has been outright nasty lately too. Considering Escobar is going to be at SS for quite a while, look at what the Brewers have as options at 2B for the next several years. It is pretty much an embarassment of riches....I would challenge doubters to find more than a few organinizations, if that, that have a better supply in that area.

 

Gregmag, so happy to see you back posting by the way.

[dadofandrew]

If Farris can only play 2B, his value is very limited. The only player I can recall that had a career as a 2B who did not start was Keith Lockhart. If he's able to play SS/3B/OF, or even one of those, he suddenly is on my radar. However, with rare exception, 2B in the minors are there for a reason, usually lack of arm/range, or both. For example, Ron Belliard was moved from SS to 2B in A ball, and has never played SS to speak of since.

 

For now, he's a smaller guy, bats RH, never walks, little pop, who apparently runs fast. I bet you can go through and find a dozen AAA 2B that fit that exact mold, as that's where guys that can't play SS/3B end up if they can hit. He's 24, so he's not young for his level.

 

A guy like Jay Canizaro, who I saw play for the Twins, might be a good comparison, though Jay had oodles more power. Good AAA player, got a few chances in the bigs. Farris' AAA stats look like Tony Gwynn Jr's, so his offense will be minimal.

[colbyjack]

Farris wasn't sent to Nashville just because he didn't have anywhere else to go. If the Brewers didn't think that highly of him, they wouldn't have challenged him with a 2-level jump. Just because some here may not consider him much of a prospect doesn't mean the Brewers view him the same way. I've always been under the impression they think quite highly of him actually. He did play SS his junior year in college, and while he positions himself and has the range to play SS, his arm is reportedly is pretty weak.

 

I agree though that his value as a 2B only is limited. He could become a 25th man on a roster for his base-running abilities and as a situational pinch hitter, as he handles the bat pretty well. The rest of your bench would have to be pretty solid for that to happen, or even do something the Brewers haven't done for a long time in carrying 6 players on the bench and only 11 pitchers.

[sveumrules]

It just seems to me that if they couldn't find a place recently even at the end of the 25 man for guys like the Hurricane (same primary position but better offenseive line) or Heether/Rottino (more positional versatility/better power), that Farris has long odds to overcome to be viewed as a possible utility guy. He seems to almost toe the line between organizational soldier/AAAA guy.

[igor67]

Arguably it could be a managing issue, but the hard thing about young utility prospects is the sporadic playing time. If that can throw off the best of hitting prospects it makes for a huge hurdle for more marginal guys. So I agree in principal that you should generally be able to find utility players dirt cheap on the farm, but in practice developing those guys so you have confidence in them is quite another.

[HiAndTight]

Green is a very average 3B, he certainly isn't a SS. He's nothing like Cirillo or Loretta. He's very similar to Tyler Houston. Short and squatty, with a quick but stiff lefthanded stroke. They are grooming Zealous Wheeler as a utility guy. Eric Farris has always been a low OPS guy, he's not a prospect.

Nobody's suggesting we make him a everyday starting SS, and we certainly don't need him to with Alcides Escobar playing everyday there. And Zealous Wheeler certainly isn't a big league SS defensively, but again, when you need a guy to play very limited innings out there, you can certainly get by with less.

 

I'm simply saying Green isn't likely to jump over Lawrie, Gamel and McGehee at 3rd base anytime soon, but is a good enough player I'd like to see the Brewers try to work him into the equation.

 

As for him being "short and squatty", he's an inch shorter than Loretta. He's definitly thicker coming in about 10 pounds heavier, but "short and squatty" at 5'11" 195 is an exaggeration IMO. Not to mention Houston was 6'2 210. So his measurements are far closer to Loretta than Houston.

 

With regard to Farris, we're talking about guys who may develop into utility players, so I don't know how you can possibly dismiss him as a utility prospect at this point based on his offensive numbers. I'm not nearly as concerned with a utility players OPS if he can put up the numbers he's put up thus far. A .295/.335/.385 type line is absolutely fine from me for a guy who is as effective a base stealer as Farris is. You're not going to have every guy in the lineup slug .500+.

[HiAndTight]

That and the fact that Farris was jumped 2 levels this past year tells me he's more highly regarded than Wheeler,

Farris was sent to Nashville because he didn't have a starting spot at Huntesville. Farris has been a little overmatched at AAA. Farris might be a great basestealer, but you can't steal 1st.

If the Brewers didn't think anything of Farris, and agreed with your assessment that "he wasn't a prospect", they easily could have kept him in HiA rather than go with the likes of Sergio Miranda, and Steve Braun at 2nd base.

 

And Farris was playing well to start the season at AAA before he got hurt. He's also certainly bounced back from it better than Cain did last year. So I think you're overlooking the impact a knee injury has on a guy who relies on speed as Farris(and Cain) do.

[Never Outhustled]

I would much rather have my utility guy be a strong defender at SS than a poor defender there but a good PR. Were not pulling anyone for a PR. Luis Cruz is a cheap utility option that is a strong defensive SS. Farris would struggle to put up a 600 OPS in the majors, if he played fulltime, and will be worse with sporadic playing time.

 

If the Brewers didn't think anything of Farris, and agreed with your assessment that "he wasn't a prospect", they easily could have kept him in HiA rather than go with the likes of Sergio Miranda, and Steve Braun at 2nd base.

Matt Cline is the 2B at BC. He has been better at the plate than Farris ever was, despite the fact that Cline didn't play last year. Cline has a 400 OBA this year, Farris had an OBA of just 341 there last year.

[HiAndTight]

Matt Cline is the 2B at BC. He has been better at the plate than Farris

ever was, despite the fact that Cline didn't play last year. Cline has a

400 OBA this year, Farris had an OBA of just 341 there last year.

 

Cline's been one of their 2nd basemen this year. He's played more at 3rd than 2nd though.

Miranda's played 55 games there; Cline 46, Braun without looking again has played 15 or so.

 

But that right there illustrates my point. They don't have a clear cut 2nd basemen. And Cline's almost 25 years old in HiA. Farris turned 24 at the start of the year and is in AAA.

 

I would much rather have my utility guy be a strong defender at SS than a

poor defender there but a good PR. Were not pulling anyone for a PR.

Luis Cruz is a cheap utility option that is a strong defensive SS.

Farris would struggle to put up a 600 OPS in the majors, if he played

fulltime, and will be worse with sporadic playing time.

 

Well, that effectively rules out Zealous Wheeler, but Cruz is fine as a backup SS. I was looking more for the year after next year though. I don't know if Cruz is going to be around next year or what their plans for him are.

 

I'm also not sure how you can just throw out .600 as his ceiling. I understand you don't like Farris as a prospect, but I'm not sure how exactly you come to a .600 OPS for Farris in the future. Not that anyone expects him to carry a high OPS, and Cruz, the guy you'd prefer to go with certainly isn't a guy who has a very high OPS(a .528 in his brief big league stint)

 

 

 

In any event, to be honest, my focus was far more on Taylor Green than Farris. Farris is forcing his name into the discussion though by hitting .290 at AAA. Obviously it's a light .290, and he needs to improve his walk rate, but for a guy skipping AA, and getting hurt this year, I'll take the high BA and hope the OBP can improve.

[pete]

Somebody has to play SS once in a while to give Esco an off day. It wouldn't surprise me to see Melvin bring back Counsell cheap although I hope not. If Cruz is one bench infielder, I have a hard time imagining Melvin having 2 younger bench guys.

[HiAndTight]

Somebody has to play SS once in a while to give Esco an off day. It wouldn't surprise me to see Melvin bring back Counsell cheap although I hope not. If Cruz is one bench infielder, I have a hard time imagining Melvin having 2 younger bench guys.

I'd love to see Counsell back for another year at 1.5 or so.

 

My point is more about being able to get Taylor Green in particular into the equation, and in general to move some of our guys around a bit more as Farris for one isn't likely to do much as just a 2nd basemen.