How hard is it to teach a player a 2-seam fastball?

[cwolf2012]

I ask because it seems that something has to change with Manny Parra's fastball. As noted in this article, his fastball is a horrid 16.4 runs below average, up from -24 last year.

 

Does anyone have any experience or read any articles on how difficult it is to learn a new fastball? I suspect that if we got him any sort of pitch that he could throw 91-92 with movement, he would instantly be a better pitcher. Have any minor league pitchers in the last several years developed something like it in a reasonably quick amount of time?

 

I suppose I could google most of this info, but I am looking more for anyone with first-hand knowledge or has done extensive research into the mechanics of various fastballs.

 

EDIT: I think I might have put this in the wrong forum, maybe not. Mods, can you make the call for me?

[RockCoCougars]

From my experience, your fastball either has movement or it doesn't. For whatever reason, most lefties have good movement on their fastball, but Parra's is straight as a string- yet another reason that he's so perplexing.

[giffted1]

Take my opinion with a grain of salt as my pitching experience was limited to my first couple years in high school.

 

It wouldn't be too hard for someone with a 4-seam fastball to learn a 2-seam fastball, especially a major league baseball player. Actually, I'd be very surprised if Parra didn't know how to throw it. The difference between a 2-seam and 4-seam fastball mechanics-wise is just the grip.

 

In my experience the 2-seamer has more movement than a 4-seamer, so I definitely see why it should be considered by someone with a 4-seamer with little movement.

[whizkid]

Learning to throw any pitch is easy. Controlling it for pitcher's strikes is the hard part and that's why all pitchers don't throw every pitch there is. They only throw the pitches they can command. That's not technical, that's the 'feel' or art of pitching. The more a pitch moves, the harder it is to command. Look at all the curveballs Randy Wolf hangs.

[rluzinski]

http://www.brooksbaseball...colmlb_1%2F&prevDate=815

[thebruce44]

From my experience, your fastball either has movement or it doesn't. For whatever reason, most lefties have good movement on their fastball, but Parra's is straight as a string- yet another reason that he's so perplexing.

Tell that to Doug Davis. His career literally started upon learning a cut fastball. I believe he picked it up pretty quickly too.

 

[cwolf2012]

According to rluz's link, we get the following data.

 

[align=center]Pitch Statistics[/align]
Pitch Type	Avg Speed	Max Speed	Avg H-Break	Avg V-Break	Count	Strikes / %	Swinging Strikes / %	Linear Weights	Time to Plate
FF (FourSeam Fastball)	94.13	96.1	5.32	8.88	39	26 / 66.67%	5 / 12.82%	1.8557	0.395
CH (Changeup)	85.12	86.1	6.60	0.97	5	2 / 40.00%	1 / 20.00%	-0.0768	0.436
CU (Curveball)	78.62	79.6	0.77	-5.03	22	14 / 63.64%	5 / 22.73%	-1.1119	0.472
FS (Splitter)	85.70	88.1	5.37	4.68	16	11 / 68.75%	2 / 12.50%	0.6493	0.435
FT (TwoSeam Fastball)	93.55	95.3	7.62	6.76	18	6 / 33.33%	0 / 0.00%	0.7917	0.398

So, he apparently throws a 2 seamer, but not for strikes. Same velocity, different movement.

 

I wonder if a cut fastball is doable?

[thebruce44]

I am confused why his 2seamer moves more than his splitter. I thought that wasn't typically the case. I kinda question that chart since his 4 seamer has more vertical movement than his 2 seamer. There is a lot on there that doesn't make much sense.

[RightFieldCoder]

Jimenez also had more vertical movement on his four seam. It is sometimes referred to as a "rising fastball" because it seems to rise as it gets to the plate. A two seam fastball does not have the same amount of "lift".

[thebruce44]

Jimenez also had more vertical movement on his four seam. It is sometimes referred to as a "rising fastball" because it seems to rise as it gets to the plate. A two seam fastball does not have the same amount of "lift".

I thought rising fastballs had less vertical movement, hence they appear to rise to the batter as they near the plate when they should be moving downward.

 

 

[jerichoholicninja]

I can say from personal experience as a high school and college pitcher and high school pitching coach that a moving fastball really cannot be taught. I don't consider a cut fastball to be a moving fastball though, the cutter is my best pitch by the way. As a pitcher I've played with a 2-seamer a lot and just cannot get it to be consistent enough to trust it. I've tried teaching it to kids but have not had much success. Some of that is them not really working on it but the best 2-seamers I have ever seen were thrown by guys who just naturally did it.

[davego]

The little I know in this area (I coached fast-pitch SB for 8 years, not baseball) is the two-seamer is hard to control and hard to learn too control.

[rluzinski]

I thought a two seamer has more horizontal movement (toward the pitcher hand) and less vertical movement than a 4 seamer. About the same overall movement, though. As with anything, I'm sure in varies a lot by pitcher.

[RockCoCougars]

I can say from personal experience as a high school and college pitcher and high school pitching coach that a moving fastball really cannot be taught. I don't consider a cut fastball to be a moving fastball though, the cutter is my best pitch by the way. As a pitcher I've played with a 2-seamer a lot and just cannot get it to be consistent enough to trust it. I've tried teaching it to kids but have not had much success. Some of that is them not really working on it but the best 2-seamers I have ever seen were thrown by guys who just naturally did it.

Exactly. I really don't feel that simply changing a grip will affect a fastball's movement per se. I've always considered 'movement' as more as 'tail' not sink. Some guys just have movement on their fastballs naturally due likely to physical things such as arm slot, release, etc., and for whatever reason lefties seem to have more than righties.

[rluzinski]

A like Sheets (when he's not hurt) throws his fastball with more backspin and less side spin than most. The result is a fastball that has a lot more "rise" than most fastballs. It is a very effective pitch and certainly has "movement", despite it's lack of a tail.

 

Here's a link to Parra's P/X data for the whole season:

 

http://pitchfx.texasleagu...%2F2010&to=8%2F16%2F2010

 

Shows him throwing a two seam fastball 7.5% of the time but remember, pitch classifications are somewhat subjective.

[nsimps]

I can say from personal experience as a high school and college pitcher and high school pitching coach that a moving fastball really cannot be taught. I don't consider a cut fastball to be a moving fastball though, the cutter is my best pitch by the way. As a pitcher I've played with a 2-seamer a lot and just cannot get it to be consistent enough to trust it. I've tried teaching it to kids but have not had much success. Some of that is them not really working on it but the best 2-seamers I have ever seen were thrown by guys who just naturally did it.

Exactly. I really don't feel that simply changing a grip will affect a fastball's movement per se. I've always considered 'movement' as more as 'tail' not sink. Some guys just have movement on their fastballs naturally due likely to physical things such as arm slot, release, etc., and for whatever reason lefties seem to have more than righties.

I disagree a bit. I've taught a few kids to throw an "amatuer" two-seamer. (I say amatuer because I can't correlate it to a minor/major league level). The main imperative was pressure on the ball and length of the kids fingers to produce some movement rather than a straight even four seam.

[RockCoCougars]

I can say from personal experience as a high school and college pitcher and high school pitching coach that a moving fastball really cannot be taught. I don't consider a cut fastball to be a moving fastball though, the cutter is my best pitch by the way. As a pitcher I've played with a 2-seamer a lot and just cannot get it to be consistent enough to trust it. I've tried teaching it to kids but have not had much success. Some of that is them not really working on it but the best 2-seamers I have ever seen were thrown by guys who just naturally did it.

Exactly. I really don't feel that simply changing a grip will affect a fastball's movement per se. I've always considered 'movement' as more as 'tail' not sink. Some guys just have movement on their fastballs naturally due likely to physical things such as arm slot, release, etc., and for whatever reason lefties seem to have more than righties.

I disagree a bit. I've taught a few kids to throw an "amatuer" two-seamer. (I say amatuer because I can't correlate it to a minor/major league level). The main imperative was pressure on the ball and length of the kids fingers to produce some movement rather than a straight even four seam.

You're right. I think that grip pressure definitely has something do to with movement because it affects the spin of the ball out of the hand. The thing about that though is that different guys grip the ball differently, and it's pretty tough to unlearn how you've always done it- plus hand/finger size affects that as well. Simply changing finger position on the seams isn't going to do much in my view. I would still say that the arm slot/motion is the most important factor in movement, and it's tough (but not impossible, I suppose) to get a pitcher to deviate from their 'normal' motion- especially, if they've been using it for many years. To me, it's always seemed that the guys with the straight 'over the top' delivery often throw harder and have a better curveball than those with, say, a three quarters type delivery. At the same time, they seem to have less movement on their fastball.

[RockCoCougars]

Exactly. I really don't feel that simply changing a grip will affect a fastball's movement per se. I've always considered 'movement' as more as 'tail' not sink. Some guys just have movement on their fastballs naturally due likely to physical things such as arm slot, release, etc., and for whatever reason lefties seem to have more than righties.

I disagree a bit. I've taught a few kids to throw an "amatuer" two-seamer. (I say amatuer because I can't correlate it to a minor/major league level). The main imperative was pressure on the ball and length of the kids fingers to produce some movement rather than a straight even four seam.

You're right. I think that grip pressure definitely has something do to with movement because it affects the spin of the ball out of the hand. The thing about that though is that different guys grip the ball differently, and it's pretty tough to unlearn how you've always done it- plus hand/finger size affects that as well. Simply changing finger position on the seams isn't going to do much in my view. I would still say that the arm slot/motion is the most important factor in movement, and it's tough (but not impossible, I suppose) to get a pitcher to deviate from their 'normal' motion- especially, if they've been using it for many years. To me, it's always seemed that the guys with the straight 'over the top' delivery often throw harder and have a better curveball than those with, say, a three quarters type delivery. At the same time, they seem to have less movement on their fastball- although the good sinkerballers/heavy fastballers generally have an over the top type delivery.

[nsimps]

"At the same time, they seem to have less movement on their fastball-

although the good sinkerballers/heavy fastballers generally have an

over the top type delivery."

 

I generally agree with the over-the-top vs. three-quarters, but there is one major exception: Greg Maddux. He had a tradtional over the top arm slot and had some movement on his two-seam that was amazing.