Seattle as trading partners

[paul253]

From what I can tell, and from what I hear on ESPN, Seattle's offense is pretty horrible and could use a major upgrade. Prince would be an instant help, and Brett Lawrie would be a nice back up piece in case they can't resign Fielder. Obviously if we trade Fielder and Lawrie, Michael Pineda would have to be included. The only problem is, they don't seem to have much else in the area of pitching. They got two pitchers in the Lee deal, but one is a reliever and one, according to Baseball America, profiles as a #4 starter, which we don't really need, but I suppose he would at least be cheaper than all the #4s we're throwing out there right now. We could include Dustin Ackley as a first base replacement, but his power numbers are really low and he may not be a good long term solution. Is anyone here familiar with the Seattle system at all? I don't know if Seattle would go for a Lawrie-Pineda deal straight up, but if so it's something we'd have to consider.

 

I don't know...maybe Fielder and Lawrie for Pineda, Beavan and Ackley? Too much to give up? Not enough?

 

Pineda could be ready for the rotation next year, and Beavan could go to Nashville with Rivas and Rogers. You might be able to flip Ackley, along with McGehee for another young pitcher.

[RockCoCougars]

The only problem is, they don't seem to have much else in the area of pitching.

Felix Hernandez should be the target.

[paul253]

Didn't Seattle just extend him? Why would they want to trade him? It would take a King's ransom (no pun intended) to get Hernandez.

[Never Outhustled]

Smoak, who they got in the Lee deal, is an outstanding 1B prospect, and a huge part of their future. Ackley has been moved to 2B.

 

They won't contend next year, so I don't see them being interested in Fielder.

 

Texas, Toronto, and the White Sox make the most sense for Fielder in the offseason. With Jackson in Chicago, a package involving Fielder and Danks might fit both teams after the season.

[paul253]

I was thinking Seattle might try to extend Fielder since their offense is so terrible. If not though, would Lawrie be sufficient enough for Pineda? I know prospect for prospect trades don't happen that often, but this would make a lot of sense for both teams. Both could theoretically be ready at some point next season.

[igor67]

I have reservations about trading Lawrie, I like a lot of our other offensive prospects and think they can be pretty good, but none beside Lawrie have that Braun/Fielder type potential. I think it's way to easy to over compensate and trade too many bats for pitchers and watch our team cycle down after Braun's done because we don't have any real massive middle of the order threat.

[logan82]

Lawrie is our biggest offensive upside prospect right now, or at least the closest to the majors. I wouldn't be all that surprised to see him traded though. There are still rumors about poor work ethic and not being liked by his teammates following him around.

[MNBrew]

Our best power hitter -- among MLB's most elite -- and our best position prospect for a couple minor-league pitchers is grossly inadequate if you're not talking Felix Hernandez in return. And since Seattle just extended him, and based on other reasons already stated in this thread, I don't think Seattle is much of a match for Prince at all.

[paul253]

Our best power hitter -- among MLB's most elite -- and our best position prospect for a couple minor-league pitchers

 

Michael Pineda has established himself as one of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball though, so he's not just any ole minor league pitcher. Dustin Ackley is still rather highly thought of as well and could basically substitute for Lawrie as the Brewers best second base prospect. For whatever it's worth, in Baseball America's midseason prospect rankings, Ackley was #7 overall and Pineda was #11 (Lawrie checked in at #15). So I sort of disagree with your assessment of the trade. Even though they are minor leaguers, at least two of them are very highly thought of and are basically major league ready.

 

I'm not proposing one specific trade here. Maybe Lawrie straight up for Pineda. Or Fielder for Pineda/Beavan, etc. Just kind of thinking out loud. Heck at this point I'd be fine with Fielder for Pineda straight up.

 

I agree there are better fits elsewhere, but with Jack Z. so familiar with Milwaukee's system it might be easier to strike a deal with him. Plus, Seattle is 6th in the AL in ERA, but dead last in runs scored. They need to improve their offense, big time.

[MNBrew]

Deals like this, though, while SO promising in the eyes of many, still are potentially very dangerous in terms of getting an inadequate return.

 

When the Brewers traded Gary Sheffield, they got a young MLB-ready SP (Ricky Bones), a potential stud though highly error-prone SS (Jose Valentin and his 51 errors his last year in SD's system), and a young two-time league-MVP prospect outfielder w/ excellent tools (Matt Mieske). Looked great at the time. In hindsight, even the long-term value of Valentin -- clearly the best career of the 3 -- and his production is debatable in terms of the Brewers truly getting adequate value in return for Sheffield.

 

Looking at the Cliff Lee deal, the Sabathia deal, the Teixiera (sp?) trade from Texas, etc., and then considering Fielder's age, career production, & still a year of arby eligibility remaining, I still believe the Brewers ought to be able to get 3 excellent players back -- not 2 -- for Prince in any trade, especially when there can be more suitors and fewer budget dollars spoken for in November/December. . . .

 

. . . So Pineda & Ackley PLUS something more, I could live with that better than just those two.

 

Cleveland got LaPorta & Brantley PLUS Bryson (decent prospect) and Jackson (more like AAA filler) from the Brewers for Sabathia. Four-for-one would be too much to expect. But 3-for-1 seems definitely in line -- without any of the nonsense about paying an iota of Fielder's likely-by-then-still-undetermined salary.

[HiAndTight]

I have reservations about trading Lawrie, I like a lot of our other offensive prospects and think they can be pretty good, but none beside Lawrie have that Braun/Fielder type potential. I think it's way to easy to over compensate and trade too many bats for pitchers and watch our team cycle down after Braun's done because we don't have any real massive middle of the order threat.

Could not agree more. We've made our mini-resurgence on the back of our offense, and while it certainly has not gotten us to where we need to be, and we need pitching and defense about as much as Joe Morgan needs an "off the air" job, I love the look of the offensive unit we're putting together and project to have in a year or two.

 

It's going to lack the big Superstar slugger in the middle of the order as I believe Prince is, and always has been the top offensive player we've had with his consistent power numbers, and more importantly, his huge OBP skills in the middle of our lineup.

 

However I think Lawrie is a guy who could put up HUGE numbers, a peak line of .300/.400/.550 isn't out of the question for him. When you look at the rest of the guys we've got, we won't have a guy mashing 50 bombs in the middle of our lineup, but I also don't see a hole with Weeks/Gamel/Braun/Lawrie/Hart/Cain/Lucroy/Escobar. Aside from the defensive stalwart Escobar, I see an entire lineup that could post a minimum of a .350 OBP and just be far more consistent top to bottom.

 

I'd just hate to see this group broken up in search for a pitching prospect. I see other avenues we could explore in order to address that obvious and glaring need.

[HiAndTight]

Looking at the Cliff Lee deal, the Sabathia deal, the Teixiera (sp?) trade from Texas, etc., and then considering Fielder's age, career production, & still a year of arby eligibility remaining, I still believe the Brewers ought to be able to get 3 excellent players back -- not 2 -- for Prince in any trade, especially when there can be more suitors and fewer budget dollars spoken for in November/December. . . .

 

. . . So Pineda & Ackley PLUS something more, I could live with that better than just those two.

 

Cleveland got LaPorta & Brantley PLUS Bryson (decent prospect) and Jackson (more like AAA filler) from the Brewers for Sabathia. Four-for-one would be too much to expect. But 3-for-1 seems definitely in line -- without any of the nonsense about paying an iota of Fielder's likely-by-then-still-undetermined salary.

Man alive that would be a incredible, amazing return for Prince, and if Doug Melvin were able to do that, I would advocate giving him a life-time contract in Milwaukee and pray at the altar which is "the stache". But I just don't see the Mariners even considering doing that.

 

You mention the CC trade, well, LaPorta was not as good as either Ackley or Pineda, and neither Brantley, nor Bryson(who's looked amazing this year by the way with a video-game-esque 15.3 K/9 ratio).

 

Frankly, were the Brewers able to swing a "Prince for Ackley" OR "Prince for Pineda" deal, I'd be happy with that. If it's the later, we get our young arm we so desperately crave. If it's Ackley, we could turn around and trade him for pitching, or make someone else expendable.

 

Still, I don't see the Mariners being interested in Prince.

[jackalope02ca]

Lawrie would appeal to Seatlle as he is close to being a local boy and would draw in a lot of busloads from B.C. I'm not advocating trading him but Seattle is the one team that might overpay for him from the perspective that he would help drive revenue from ticket and souvenir sales all through the lower mainland.

[thebruce44]

Lawrie is our biggest offensive upside prospect right now, or at least the closest to the majors. I wouldn't be all that surprised to see him traded though. There are still rumors about poor work ethic and not being liked by his teammates following him around.

Logan, I am curious where you have heard these rumors about Lawrie. Not that I don't believe you, I just can't remember hearing about them in the past.

[logan82]

Last year talking to a couple that hosted some of the players. Those players didn't like him much. I believe the exact quote as near as I can remember was along the lines of "he lacked social graces." Comments earlier this year about how it will be nice to play with guys who care more about winning than their stats. Comments about how Brewers fans might not like him because he wasn't a blue collar type of guy. I would normally just ignore this kind of stuff but it kept coming up from several different sources. I think if you go back and look at a Lawrie thread in the MiLB forum you will probably see more.

[paul253]

So Pineda & Ackley PLUS something more, I could live with that better than just those two.

I think you are overvaluing Fielder a little too much. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to get those two for Fielder, but it's not going to happen. Teams value young pitching a lot more now than they did in the Gary Sheffield in Milwaukee days. Pineda could be a future ace, and teams don't just give those away. If Fielder had more than a year left I'd agree that we'd have to get more in return than one pitcher, but I don't think you'll get any one pitcher better than Pineda. I'd personally rather go with quality than quantity, and I think Pineda is as quality as you can get as far as pitching prospects. Maybe if the Brewers included McGehee, since Seattle will have him under control for awhile, they could ask for more? Fielder/McGehee would certainly improve Seattle's offense, and both play positions that Seattle could use upgrades at (3B and either 1B or DH). Maybe Fielder and McGehee for Pineda, Ackley, and another pitcher (I wish I was more familiar with their system to suggest anyone other than Beavan). Gamel could slide into third base, or you can move Lawrie to third base and extend Weeks.

[Kelbysdaddy]

pineda/ackley/saunders/alex liddi for prince/gamel

[TooLiveBrew]

Last year talking to a couple that hosted some of the players. Those players didn't like him much. I believe the exact quote as near as I can remember was along the lines of "he lacked social graces." Comments earlier this year about how it will be nice to play with guys who care more about winning than their stats. Comments about how Brewers fans might not like him because he wasn't a blue collar type of guy. I would normally just ignore this kind of stuff but it kept coming up from several different sources. I think if you go back and look at a Lawrie thread in the MiLB forum you will probably see more.

Another one from said MiLB thread I recall was a scout or talent evaluator saying something to the effect of, 'he could stick at 2B if he wants to'

[HiAndTight]

Last year talking to a couple that hosted some of the players. Those players didn't like him much. I believe the exact quote as near as I can remember was along the lines of "he lacked social graces." Comments earlier this year about how it will be nice to play with guys who care more about winning than their stats. Comments about how Brewers fans might not like him because he wasn't a blue collar type of guy. I would normally just ignore this kind of stuff but it kept coming up from several different sources. I think if you go back and look at a Lawrie thread in the MiLB forum you will probably see more.

Well, I suppose he may rub some people the wrong way. He seems to be an incredibly driven kid, and has very "Braun-like" confidence.

 

The "lacking in Social Graces"....well, he was a 19 year old kid away from home for the first time, was the highest profile player on that team, signed a big contract. I don't think it's the kiss of death(not that you suggested it was) for a kid that age to be a bit immature, or what have you.

 

As for the stats vs winning comment, it's the minor leagues. You get promoted by putting up numbers. Not to mention baseball's a series of individual matchup's, so his success is the team's success save for a very few situations. However if you come into the clubhouse thrilled when a 3-4 2 DBL night during a 8-2 loss, that's a significant problem. I would suspect that many of the Brewers, outside of perhaps Weeks, are right now more concerned with their own personal numbers than the teams success. At least at this point in the season. Prince would likely rather go 4-5 with 2 HR's and lose 10-6 than go 0-4 with 2 K's and a game winning sac fly. That's just my opinion. The doldrums of minor league baseball, and losing big league baseball can make a player more consumed with their own stats and how it impacts their contract/promotions than trying to get back to 5 games under .500 or what have you.

 

 

But, with respect to you having not spoken with these people, not knowing who they are, I don't place a whole lot of stock into the 3rd, 4th person commentary on him. Not that it's not entirely possible that he rubs people the wrong way or that you're not 100 pct right about him,(Though I have always heard he's a very intense and exceptionally hard worker, there have been scouts who's said he looks dis-interested defensively, and I can say I've seen glimpses of the same thing from watching him on several occasions last year) but I'm simply not sold that these are character issues and not just age issues, or that there truly as large as suggested.

[logan82]

The "lacking in Social Graces"....well, he was a 19 year old kid away from home for the first time,

 

You mean the guy who played for the Canadian national team several times?

[thebruce44]

I appreciate the reports on him. True or not, I don't really care that much. He strikes me as a Braun-like player confidence wise. While that may rub some people the wrong way, I like it.

[logan82]

I appreciate the reports on him. True or not, I don't really care that much. He strikes me as a Braun-like player confidence wise. While that may rub some people the wrong way, I like it.

The only really troubling thing is the reports that he only cares about hitting and apparently doesn't want to put in the work on defense. I don't know if they are true or not but that is what we have heard and has been insinuated in scouting reports. Of course scouting reports are prone to small samples and group-think. Lawrie isn't Braun special with the bat either.

[paul253]

Would Lawrie get Pineda, straight up? If so would people here go for it? I would.

[trwi7]

I would go for it. I'm not sure Seattle would. I heard one of the reasons they took the Rangers package over the Yankees for Cliff Lee is because Smoak is a switch hitter and Montero bats right handed. Right handers have a lot of trouble at Safeco.

[paul253]

I'd go for it as well, even if we had to throw a little something else in. Caleb Gindl maybe? I like Gindl but he seems to have been tailing off and our outfield is loaded with depth which makes him expendable. Pineda steps right into the rotation next year and still leaves us with Fielder to restock the system.