Casey to Braves?

[logan82]

What makes McGehee our 2nd biggest trading chip is that he is replaceable not his value to the team.

[davego]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought guys like Casey that are cheap, under control and seem to be able to play are guys we look for... not to move. Prince, for good or ill, is the kind of player(s) this team has to move on.

[nate82]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought guys like Casey that are cheap, under control and seem to be able to play are guys we look for... not to move. Prince, for good or ill, is the kind of player(s) this team has to move on.

If you can move a player for cheap young starting pitching you move that player. As much as I like McGehee if a team offers a good young pitcher or a cost controlled pitcher for him I would take that deal. The Brewers need some good young pitching and if it means trading McGehee for it then you have to trade McGehee for that. The Brewers still do have some flexibility with Gamel, Lawrie, and Green in the minors to replace McGehee at 3B.

[logan82]

The Brewers still do have some flexibility with Gamel, Lawrie, and Green in the minors to replace McGehee at 3B.

 

I should have been more specific but that is what I mean by replaceable and I should have added with similar expected production. Hart, Braun and Gallardo would be bigger trading chips than McGehee but I don't see them going anywhere. Weeks could be a big trading piece but unless he turns down an extension I doubt we move him. Add in that the only real replacement of quality we have for Weeks is Lawrie and he isn't as replaceable as McGehee. Plus he is a much better hitter than McGehee. McGehee isn't young but he will be under team control through his most productive years.(he will turn 32 in his first FA offseason)

[davego]

"If you can move a player for cheap young starting pitching you move that player. As much as I like McGehee if a team offers a good young pitcher or a cost controlled pitcher for him I would take that deal. The Brewers need some good young pitching and if it means trading McGehee for it then you have to trade McGehee for that. The Brewers still do have some flexibility with Gamel, Lawrie, and Green in the minors to replace McGehee at 3B."

 

...well sure, if a team is going to give you that for Casey...or just about any player we have...I would do that. I question if DM can get that kind of return. If possible; rock on.

[Kelbysdaddy]

i think a big problem with getting the young pitching the brewers need is every gm knows just how desperate the crew is for them.

[Never Outhustled]

i think a big problem with getting the young pitching the brewers need is every gm knows just how desperate the crew is for them.

 

 

If a team wants McGehee, they know they'll need to be high bidder to get his services. There's multiple teams that could use a cheap 3B, so I don't expect to get low balled. It does a team like Minnesota, Detroit, and Cleveland no good to low ball us because we're desperate, only to see the 3B they need get traded to a division rival.

 

 

Somewhere along the line in here the discussion started to morph (shocking for a 3 page thread I know). But sveumrules comment about Casey being our second best chip is exactly the point. I don't think in the wide variety of threads I can recall anybody saying Casey wasn't a good find or a valued part of the team. Exactly the opposite he is rather valuable. However, you have to give to get on the trade market. The only potential alternative to trading the improve would be some variety of playing out the next year or two and hope that we can string together enough starters off the farm (plus whatever Prince nets) to get back squarely into contention. So the question in my mind becomes how do you change the complexion of the team into a contender. I've stated a few times that I don't think focusing strictly on getting better pitching is going to work because our current defense seems to turn #3/4 starters into #4/5. Which would mean needing at least 3 total #1/2 quality pitchers.

 

Exactly. The combination of the pitcher we get for McGehee and the RF platoon we add to the lineup that allows us to move hart to 1B will be more Wins Above Replacement than the combination of McGehee and any 1 of the multitude of replacement level pitchers we have now.

 

 

well sure, if a team is going to give you that for Casey...or just about any player we have...I would do that. I question if DM can get that kind of return. If possible; rock on.

I don't know if we would get a cheap pitcher, but I think we could get a talented mid priced pitcher with a package centered around McGehee. Some teams will be tight against there budgets, unlike the Brewers, who will have a hard time finding takers for all the money they'll have available.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Minnesota doesn't need a 3B. David Valencia is absolutely tearing it up this year as a rookie, but i agree with your larger point

[HiAndTight]

McGehee's range extends about 1 step in either direction, and his arm is pedestrian. I see many bring up the fact that he was once a top defender, and thats maybe true. However, thats completely irrelevent since that was at least 15 pounds ago. McGehee continues to play over-weight, he done it for 2 years now, and it kills his movement skills. Since the Brewers have sent a clear message to their players that being over-weight and out of shape is acceptable, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

My 1st move if I was GM would be to send the 2 fat boys out the door.

With respect, I think this is absolutely ridiculous. They've sent a clear message how? Because they drafted a large 1st basemen who was the youngest in the game to hit 50 HR's, and who has been one of the games top power hitters the last 5 years and is just now 26 years of age?

Or because McGehee is 15 pounds heavier in your opinion, though I'm not sure what that's based off of as he doesn't look much different than he did with the Cubs. I think that's a number you just kinda picked up out of thin air.

What's more, I think it was his knee injury more so than this "15 pounds" that may have caused any decreased mobility. Either way, you're definitely exaggerating with the whole 1 step thing. McGehee's definitely not a defensive stalwart, but his arm is certainly more than "pedestrian".

 

His range going to his right is actually just fine as well. He struggles coming in on the ball, be it a bunt or a slow roller, and he doesn't move to his left well. I believe he's better than his defensive metrics suggest, though I won't argue that he does have poor range for a 3rd basemen. That's undisputed.

I also take issue with your "two fat boy" comments, though I'm guessing most everyone does. I'd trade Prince because he's got one year of team control left, and for NO other reason. That "fat boy" plays every single day, and in fact has started more games in a row than anyone in the game.

 

He's also just built thick. No question he's got fat, but he's also a helluva athlete for his size. And I'd trade McGehee, again, not because of his size, that doesn't play into it one iota, I'd trade him because we've got Gamel who is left handed, and I think will be substantially better over the course of his career, AND because we've got Brett Lawrie who I think is going to be an outstanding hitter and after watching him in Wisconsin last year, I think he profiles perfectly at 3rd base. Very nice, smoot hands, and a very strong arm.

 

 

But the "fat boys" comment I think is just ridiculous. I'm guessing Babe Ruth never would have donned Pin Stripes had you been running the show in New York back then...which might have been a good thing. They may be the San Fran Yankee's now.

[Never Outhustled]

Minnesota doesn't need a 3B. David Valencia is absolutely tearing it up this year as a rookie,

 

 

His OPS is under 800, despite a 325 batting average. When that average drops down to a number in line with his career minor league numbers, his OPS will be under 700. Now that Valencia has started playing full time, he's put up a 558 OPS in August. I doubt he's their answer at 3B.

[MNBrew]

The Twins have been talking about DANNY Valencia for a couple years. He's the best 3B prospect they've had since Michael Cuddyer when he first came up (and moved to RF that fall & the playoffs because they ended up so shorthanded). The Twins also know he's not the 2nd coming of Mike Schmidt or Scott Rolen.

[TooLiveBrew]

His range going to his right is actually just fine as well. He struggles coming in on the ball, be it a bunt or a slow roller, and he doesn't move to his left well. I believe he's better than his defensive metrics suggest, though I won't argue that he does have poor range for a 3rd basemen. That's undisputed.

I completely disagree on his range to his right. I think it stinks, too. And, while I understand X was going for some hyperbole with the "one step" comment, I don't think it's all that far off in terms of McGehee. I agree with H&T that Casey's arm is definitely better than "pedestrian", but guys that have solid gloves, good arms, and no range aren't that hard to find. They're tend to play 1B/LF for the most part, though. Imo McGehee should be dealt this offseason because: 1) He's a cheap, average, player that could very realistically bring an arm in return or sweeten another deal to bring back an even better return, and 2) He's blocking Gamel, a better bat right now with the ceiling to be a far better overall player down the road. We've suffered through Casey's subpar defense at 3B, we can afford to do the same with Gamel... a guy that could actually turn into a positive in the field (unlike McGehee).

Also... I can't believe the Brewers are still trying to keep up the Casey McGehee -- 195 lbs.!!! charade. It's just too comical at this point.

[HiAndTight]

I completely disagree on his range to his right. I think it stinks, too. And, while I understand X was going for some hyperbole with the "one step" comment, I don't think it's all that far off in terms of McGehee. I agree with H&T that Casey's arm is definitely better than "pedestrian", but guys that have solid gloves, good arms, and no range aren't that hard to find. They're tend to play 1B/LF for the most part, though. Imo McGehee should be dealt this offseason because: 1) He's a cheap, average, player that could very realistically bring an arm in return or sweeten another deal to bring back an even better return, and 2) He's blocking Gamel, a better bat right now with the ceiling to be a far better overall player down the road. We've suffered through Casey's subpar defense at 3B, we can afford to do the same with Gamel... a guy that could actually turn into a positive in the field (unlike McGehee).

Also... I can't believe the Brewers are still trying to keep up the Casey McGehee -- 195 lbs.!!! charade. It's just too comical at this point.

We'll have to agree to disagree as it's not worth arguing when we are in complete agreement on the larger point. I've long been driving the "trade Casey McGehee" bandwagon(well, as long as one can given his short history of success).

 

Again, I believe McGehee's defense over time will be looked at as being closer to average than it is now, but I also believe his peak offensive seasons are behind him.

 

A 2 year line of;

.292/.351/.482 with an .833 OPS and a 123 OPS+

 

Is nothing to sneeze at. I just really hope we can convince some team out there to buy high on him. Frankly, I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I wouldn't mind packaging him with Axford at all to a team perhaps such as the Braves as mentioned initially after the season. He could fill in for Chipper at 3rd, Chipper with his injury concerns could slide over to 1st base next year, and Axford could replace Wagner as the Braves closer(if he does indeed decide to retire), and the Braves certainly have a number of viable starting pitching prospects available.

 

I doubt trading Axford will be popular, but he's another guy that I would like to trade high on. He's a likable guy and a easy guy to root for, but ultimately, I question if he can continue to pitch with the type of command he has thus far. If throwing him into a package to the Braves could net us a guy like Minor, Delgado, Vizcaino, or Teheran, I'd jump all over it.

 

Either way, the last thing I want to see the Brewers do is deal Gamel and hold onto McGehee simply because he's put up two regular big league seasons.

[JohnBriggs12]

I continue to be amazed with the utter contempt many keep expressing for Casey McGehee. Here you have a great guy and model citizen who's done nothing but produce since he's been here for mininum salary no less but yet some here can't wait until he's gone. Last season it was all about his being a fluke. Nobody with such modest minor league stats could possibly be this good. Let's trade him before he turns into a pumpkin. So this year he comes back and completely validates what he did in 2009. He's on pace for a 25HR, 100 RBI season, a solid .285 BA, close to average defense, and the same people want to run him out of town. In one breath, they'll say you have to trade him because he'll bring back this great return, while in the same paragraph they are disparaging his game. What is it? Oh he's blocking a better player they'll say? He's not blocking anyone. He beat out Gamel in 2009, and he'd likely beat him out again. He is a better fielder than Gamel. That's not saying a lot, but it's the truth. I'm not disparaging Gamel, but the reality is that Gamel struggled against AAA pitching until July this year. To assume, he's better than a guy that's a proven major league run producer is a big leap. Gamel will have a major league career. But it's more likely to look something like Adam LaRoche's that it is Albert Pujols'.

 

All that being said, of course McGehee is not untouchable, but neither is Gamel. But you better get a boatload in return because guys like Casey don't grow on trees.

[kramnoj]

I continue to be amazed with the utter contempt many keep expressing for Casey McGehee.

 

There isn't really any contempt, let alone any of the utter variety.

 

but yet some here can't wait until he's gone

 

Only in return for something the Brewers need, starting pitching. Nobody is advocating cutting him.

 

and the same people want to run him out of town.

 

Find one person who says they want to run him out of town. I think people want to drive him to airport and pick up a starting pitcher to drive back to Miller Park while they are there.

 

I'm not disparaging Gamel, but the reality is that Gamel struggled against AAA pitching until July this year.

 

That's reality, but it's not utter reality. Utter reality would be that Gamel was injured and then didn't have the full benefit of spring training to prepare for the season.

[thebruce44]

I continue to be amazed with the utter contempt many keep expressing for Casey McGehee. Here you have a great guy and model citizen

 

Those qualities have nothing to do with if he should be traded or not.

 

Oh he's blocking a better player they'll say? He's not blocking anyone. He beat out Gamel in 2009, and he'd likely beat him out again.

 

Doubtful. If both players are healthy I think Gamel is better and will continue to get better. McGehee has likely peaked.

 

He is a better fielder than Gamel. That's not saying a lot, but it's the truth.

 

Please don't state your opinion as fact. Right now I would expect Gamel to at least be as good as McGehee. Going forward he will continue to improve. Thats my opinion, not the truth though.

 

I'm not disparaging Gamel, but the reality is that Gamel struggled against AAA pitching until July this year.

 

He was injured. Now he is healthy and raking, just like he has done at all his other minor league stops. What else do you want from him?

[Never Outhustled]

I'm not disparaging Gamel, but the reality is that Gamel struggled against AAA pitching until July this year.

Casey McGehee struggled against all minor league pitching his entire career. He never once had an OPS above 776 in the minors. 776 is a terrible slump for Gamel.

 

What suprises me Briggs is that you wouldn't be more excited to get a lefthanded bat into the lineup. You've often blamed many of Fielders slumps on the fact that he's our only lefty. I would think you'd be Gamel's biggest advocate.

[Invader3K]

I think my ideal scenario next season would be to have both Gamel and McGehee on the MLB roster. I don't care who plays 1B and who plays 3B, as it might be somewhat of a wash who is better defensively right now.

 

Like I said earlier in the thread, if someone is willing to give up a quality pitcher for McGehee, then great. I'm not convinced that will happen, though.

[Bombers]

I am confused at why so much venting is directed toward McGehee. Ok sure Gamel is a left handed bat and would be nice to get into our lineup. But sourcing the Brewers frustrating last two seasons partially onto Casey McGehee is way off. He isn't our problem. He costs $400K or so a season. Cost to production ratio is fantastic. We certainly don't need less Casey McGehee's on the team, we need more people like him that produce at that cost. (And a bonus to me is he has a burning desire to beat the Cubs every time he faces them. They are the ones who gave up on him and never gave him a chance.)

 

McGehee isn't the first player in MLB history to have a pedestrian MiLB career and have above average success in MLB either. (and certainly won't be the last.) Look at Posednik. He certainly wasn't stunning in MiLB, it took him like 8 years to reach the majors. His MiLB stats were not good. But who cares? He produces in the Majors where it counts. Look at our players in the starting lineup next year who will make near minimum salaries; CF - Cain, SS - Escobar, C - Lucroy, 3B - McGehee all make near minimum salaries. That is half of our everyday starting positional players. (Tossing in the likes of Dickerson, Gomez, Axford, and Braddock into that equation makes it even better.) Remember when we paid Gagne $10 million to close. I am loving every bit of Axford and his $400k. And Casey too. So players like this is what the Brewers need to strive for, not stray from.

[MNBrew]

I did find it interesting that in yesterday's JSOnline chat, Anthony Witrado, who does understand "deeper" stats, made the remark that Gamel has "shown to be a butcher in the infield."

 

The deeper stats may show good range or whatever, but the bottom line is that putting him at 3B is not necessarily any improvement over McGehee and maybe still toward where Braun was on that spectrum.

[MNBrew]

I did find it interesting that in yesterday's JSOnline chat, Anthony Witrado, who does understand "deeper" stats, made the remark that Gamel has "shown to be a butcher in the infield."

 

The deeper stats may show good range or whatever, but the bottom line is that putting him at 3B is not necessarily any improvement over McGehee and maybe still toward where Braun was on that spectrum.

 

I'd love to see both Gamel & McGehee on the team next year, and I'd think Gamel's much more likely to be at 1B or in RF (Hart moving to 1B) if Fielder's traded.

[Baldkin]

Witrado is also the guy who called the Brewers defense "middle of the pack" this season. I wouldn't believe anything he said about anyone's defense.

[HiAndTight]

I continue to be amazed with the utter contempt many keep expressing for

Casey McGehee. Here you have a great guy and model citizen who's done

nothing but produce since he's been here for mininum salary no less but

yet some here can't wait until he's gone.

What on Earth are you talking about? Utter contempt? Exaggerate much? First of all, it's great that he's a "model citizen", but I'm more concerned with building our baseball team. He does seem like a great guy, but that isn't the first thing I'm looking for in building a baseball team.

 

Second, I sure can wait till he's gone. I do however want to see him traded while his value is still high as we have a better prospect waiting in the wings, and he can be used to improve our pitching.

Last season it was all about his being a fluke. Nobody with such

modest minor league stats could possibly be this good. Let's trade him

before he turns into a pumpkin. So this year he comes back and

completely validates what he did in 2009. He's on pace for a 25HR, 100

RBI season, a solid .285 BA, close to average defense, and the same

people want to run him out of town.

 

Again, there's no useful discussion to be had when you're so over the top. "Run him out of town"? How about "trade him for pitching as we have a 3rd base prospect most consider to be better and left handed.

And while I believe he may provide "close to average" defense in the future, and isn't AS bad as the metrics have shown, they most assuredly do not have him close to average.

 

But again, the ridiculous, "run him out of town" and "utter contempt" are the parts I take issue with. They're just so over the top.

 

Talking about trading a guy when his value is high and you have a good replacement waiting in the wings is a touch different than having contempt and wanting to run him out of town.

 

In one breath, they'll say you have to trade him because he'll bring

back this great return, while in the same paragraph they are disparaging

his game. What is it?

 

Again, tone down the hyperbole. "He'll bring back this GREAT return"? No, don't recall anyone ever saying that.

Oh he's blocking a better player they'll say? He's not blocking anyone.

He beat out Gamel in 2009, and he'd likely beat him out again.

 

Not very difficult to beat out an injured player. As for the second part, complete conjecture on your part, and that's all it is.

He is a better fielder than Gamel. That's not saying a lot, but it's the truth.

 

It may be your opinion, but until you can prove that to me, I will continue to disagree.

I'm not disparaging Gamel, but the reality is that Gamel struggled against AAA pitching until July this year.

 

You're "disparaging him" a helluva lot more than anyone's disparaging McGehee.

 

And again you're just not representing the facts here. Nobody has ever questioned Gamel's bat, and he didn't struggle, so to take these tiny sample sizes is simply not the least bit productive.

 

To assume, he's better than a guy that's a proven major league run producer is a big leap

I disagree. I also think it's a big leap that McGehee will continue to do this.

Gamel will have a major league career. But it's more likely to look something like Adam LaRoche's that it is Albert Pujols'.

 

Nobody's EVER suggested he's going to be Albert Pujols, and by the way, Casey McGehee's a LOT closer to Adam LaRoche than Albert Pujols, so that statement tells us virtually nothing.

 

All that being said, of course McGehee is not untouchable, but neither

is Gamel. But you better get a boatload in return because guys like

Casey don't grow on trees.

A boatload? 4.4 WAR over his MLB career thus far at 28 years old does not demand a boatload. But hopefully someone will give us something decent for him.

[HiAndTight]

I am confused at why so much venting is directed toward McGehee. Ok sure Gamel is a left handed bat and would be nice to get into our lineup. But sourcing the Brewers frustrating last two seasons partially onto Casey McGehee is way off. He isn't our problem. He costs $400K or so a season. Cost to production ratio is fantastic. We certainly don't need less Casey McGehee's on the team, we need more people like him that produce at that cost. (And a bonus to me is he has a burning desire to beat the Cubs every time he faces them. They are the ones who gave up on him and never gave him a chance.)

 

McGehee isn't the first player in MLB history to have a pedestrian MiLB career and have above average success in MLB either. (and certainly won't be the last.) Look at Posednik. He certainly wasn't stunning in MiLB, it took him like 8 years to reach the majors. His MiLB stats were not good. But who cares? He produces in the Majors where it counts. Look at our players in the starting lineup next year who will make near minimum salaries; CF - Cain, SS - Escobar, C - Lucroy, 3B - McGehee all make near minimum salaries. That is half of our everyday starting positional players. (Tossing in the likes of Dickerson, Gomez, Axford, and Braddock into that equation makes it even better.) Remember when we paid Gagne $10 million to close. I am loving every bit of Axford and his $400k. And Casey too. So players like this is what the Brewers need to strive for, not stray from.

And I'm confused where this idea is coming from? Who's venting or blaming McGehee for anything?

 

I think to a man, everyone's blaming the Brewers lack of pitching and defense.

 

Also, you guys keep talking about his salary, well, we've got Gamel who's going to be making the same salary, PLUS, his salary is also one of the things that makes him desirable to other teams.

 

 

But perhaps you and Briggs could show us all this "contempt" and "venting" about McGehee as I don't see it. I see fans who realize their next top prospect ready to come up is a 3rd basemen, who see our Major League 3B as having a lower ceiling and having some trade value and wanting to utilize that. Nothing more. Nobody's saying we have to get Casey out of here, much less we dislike him.

 

I just can't even fathom where that idea came from.

[Bombers]

It isn't just here on bf.net, I have seen it other places too. On WSSP he is referred to as buster McGehee. All I am saying, and to agree to your point about Gamel and his salary, is we need more players like McGehee. Make the minimum and produce.

 

What is our team salary going to be next year if we subtract prince? $50 million or so we are on the hook for? (Just a guess but I bet it isn't far off) ... The Brewers need to fill their roster with young cheap guys. I never want to see another Suppan, Riske, Gagne, Turnbow, Hawkins, contract again. We have guys who can do the same in our minors so go with them.

 

And I agree with you, McGehee isn't a superstar 3B. So sure go ahead and try utilizing McGehee to get pitching, I just don't see what he would net. So if the return is low, then back to my point of stay young and cheap. IMO, Prince will be traded in the off season and Gamel / Hart will take over RF / 1B. McGehee stays at 3B.