Casey to Braves?

[HiAndTight]

I will take Casey missing a grounder here and there vs Gamel throwing it into the first row just as often. You also have to factor in that Fielder will be gone, so some needs to play 1b.

So you think Gamel's going to throw the ball into the stands(or simply make an error throwing the ball) about as often as McGehee misses a GB or can't get to one that most 3rd basemen can?

 

I'm not sure what that's based off of as Gamel looks to be much improved at 3rd, not to mention he has far better range.

[MNBrew]

I will take Casey missing a grounder here and there vs Gamel throwing it into the first row just as often. You also have to factor in that Fielder will be gone, so some needs to play 1b.

So you think Gamel's going to throw the ball into the stands(or simply make an error throwing the ball) about as often as McGehee misses a GB or can't get to one that most 3rd basemen can?

 

I'm not sure what that's based off of as Gamel looks to be much improved at 3rd, not to mention he has far better range.

HiAndTight, I tend to agree w/ you most of the time. But the way I see it, jwill535 has a valid point because, despite any differences in range, Gamel's chronically an error-making machine at 3B and has 14 errors in 66 games thus far. That's not terribly far off the pace that got Braun moved to LF. IIRC, many of Gamel's errors are due to his footwork and throws. So jwill535's hardly making an absurd point at all, and I totally agree with his point of view here.

[Menace II Sobriety]

HiAndTight, I tend to agree w/ you most of the time. But the way I see it, jwill535 has a valid point because, despite any differences in range, Gamel's chronically an error-making machine at 3B and has 14 errors in 66 games thus far. That's not terribly far off the pace that got Braun moved to LF. IIRC, many of Gamel's errors are due to his footwork and throws. So jwill535's hardly making an absurd point at all, and I totally agree with his point of view here.

But you cannot make a play on a ball you do not reach. I think HiAndTight's point was that he would rather have a 3B with range and take his chances on a few errant throws than a 3B that literally cannot field a ball unless it is hit directly at him. You will have a good fielding percentage if you can't touch most of the balls hit at you.

[HiAndTight]

HiAndTight, I tend to agree w/ you most of the time. But the way I see it, jwill535 has a valid point because, despite any differences in range, Gamel's chronically an error-making machine at 3B and has 14 errors in 66 games thus far. That's not terribly far off the pace that got Braun moved to LF. IIRC, many of Gamel's errors are due to his footwork and throws. So jwill535's hardly making an absurd point at all, and I totally agree with his point of view here.

I didn't say he was making an absurd point, I was saying I disagree...pretty strongly to be honest, but I see his point.

 

Mine, as was touched on by Menace, was that Gamel's got much better range, and can get to a lot more balls than McGehee can.

 

I also think people aren't giving Gamel the credit for improving at 3rd as much as he has. Many of the reports I've read this year, and even starting toward the end of last year have moved from the "Gamel has to move off 3rd" variety to the "Gamel's Defense has improved to the point where he can handle 3rd" type. I think he's improved a great deal over the last couple years.

 

Mind you, I'm a guy who is of the belief that McGehee's D at 3rd isn't as bad as some of the defensive metrics would suggest, but from watching Gamel last year while he was up with us, as well as the ensuing positive reports on his D, I'm absolutely convinced he can handle 3rd base.

 

Of course I've also been an advocate of moving Lawrie to 3rd for the last year and a half after watching him play for the Rattlers. He's a kid who's got very soft hands, but I question if he's going to have the quickness needed for 2nd base(Turning two, etc..), but I think he's ideally built and has the skills to be a very-very solid 3rd basemen. But that'd besides the point.

[thebruce44]

Mind you, I'm a guy who is of the belief that McGehee's D at 3rd isn't as bad as some of the defensive metrics would suggest, but from watching Gamel last year while he was up with us, as well as the ensuing positive reports on his D, I'm absolutely convinced he can handle 3rd base.

I was actually surprised to see how well he played 3rd last year (in an admittedly short sample) compared to what I was expecting from the negative reports.

[HiAndTight]

I was actually surprised to see how well he played 3rd last year (in an admittedly short sample) compared to what I was expecting from the negative reports.

Yes, I don't want to go overboard on it, as you said, it was a small sampling. However, he looked so much better than I thought he was going to look. I pictured a guy who had, slow feet, bad feet, who flew open when throwing to 3rd.

To me he looked very quick for a 3rd basemen, made some exceptional players, went to his right much better than I expected for a lefty, and to his right just so much better than McGehee can.

It was different from when Braun came up(though....I have to admit, I believe had Braun come up when Weeks did, ie, when we weren't desperately fighting for a playoff spot, that he'd have been given the opportunity to develop into a solid defender over there.

He too had good range(literal range, the ability to get to balls most 3rd basemen would not have been able to do.

 

 

In addition to that, without belaboring this same point, he had just about the prettiest swing I've seen any Brewer have for a long time. He's just got very little moving parts, is quite, short to the ball, yet long through the zone.

 

Needs to be less patient as he struck out an exceedingly high number of times last year on called 3rd strikes.

 

Can't help be being very, very excited about him IMO. I view his stint up here last year as being far more reassuring rather than troubling. Not sure how/why so many are down on him....but I digress, I've made that point enough already.

[jwill535]

We are also talking about 3rd base here. Range isnt that big of a factor at 3rd as people make it out to be. Reaction time is more important, and Casey seems to be fine. Even if Gamel reduces his errors to 15-20 a year, chances are that 75% of those are going to be throwing, going of his past history, and those errors are going to be more detrimental to a game then duffing a grounder.

 

This is all a moot point since Gamel is going to be playing First or RF next year. The idea of trading Casey doesnt make sense, when you have him for 4 more years cheaply, plus being able to put a cheap Gamel on the other side. That solves the infield, and you can use that money(7-10 mil saved from Price) to fill other needs.

[endaround]

Its because he's cheap for the next few years and the Brewers can easily replace him is why trading him makes sense.

[Invader3K]

endaround]Its because he's cheap for the next few years and the Brewers can easily replace him is why trading him makes sense.

Yes, but who do you replace him with next season if Fielder is traded and Gamel is playing 1B?

[Never Outhustled]

Its because he's cheap for the next few years and the Brewers can easily replace him is why trading him makes sense.

Yes, but who do you replace him with next season if Fielder is traded and Gamel is playing 1B?

 

Gamel doesn't have to be the one playing 1B, and it would be McGehee moving to 1B anyway. Most of us want to improve the defense, and that would have Hart (or Braun) moving to 1B with a good defender starting in the OF. Dickerson with a platoon partner likely puts out similar offense to McGehee, but the defense improves at 2 positions.

[endaround]

Inglett could replace McGehee at 3B.

[logan82]

Its because he's cheap for the next few years and the Brewers can easily replace him is why trading him makes sense.

 

Yes, but who do you replace him with next season if Fielder is traded and Gamel is playing 1B?

 

Lawrie should be ready to play either 1B or 3B by 2012.

 

Range isnt that big of a factor at 3rd as people make it out to be. Reaction time is more important, and Casey seems to be fine

 

Range and athleticism are important. It helps you cover and extra few steps that McGehee can't cover.

[JohnBriggs12]

Melvin has always stated that you want to create a surplus at a position through your farm system so you can make deals, and thats what they have with Gamel and McGehee, so we will see McGehee shopped for pitching.

 

I sure hope you're right. I'm beginning to think/fear the F.O. views Gamel as the one to deal.

With Fielder the likeliest of all Brewers to be moved in the offseason, and Gamel still not adequate defensively at 3B, there is no surplus at 3B. As bad a year as Fielder's had in run production, his bat and the subsequent respect he gets from opposing pitchers will be sorely missed next season. I think the Brewers will need to have some experience in the middle of their order, so I'd hang on McGehee. I don't expect either Gamel or McGehee to be moved barring a deal that blows them away.

 

[PrinceEatMeat]

Its because he's cheap for the next few years and the Brewers can easily replace him is why trading him makes sense.

Yes, but who do you replace him with next season if Fielder is traded and Gamel is playing 1B?

I'm guessing if McGehee was traded Gamel would just play 3B. Hart could move to 1B, and then we'd likely platoon Dickerson and Gomez in RF. I wouldn't mind giving Lawrie a look at 3B first though. Although he probably needs another season in the minors.

[Never Outhustled]

With Fielder the likeliest of all Brewers to be moved in the offseason, and Gamel still not adequate defensively at 3B, there is no surplus at 3B.

Gamel is better defensively at 3B than McGehee, as is every other 3B.

[reillymcshane]

With Fielder the likeliest of all Brewers to be moved in the offseason, and Gamel still not adequate defensively at 3B, there is no surplus at 3B.

Gamel is better defensively at 3B than McGehee, as is every other 3B.

 

 

 

X - is McGehee really that bad defensively? Thanks.

[rcon14]

With Fielder the likeliest of all Brewers to be moved in the offseason, and Gamel still not adequate defensively at 3B, there is no surplus at 3B.

Gamel is better defensively at 3B than McGehee, as is every other 3B.

 

X - is McGehee really that bad defensively? Thanks.

Just read something on JSO that said McGehee's defense is the worst for a 3B in the NL. Gamel wouldn't neccesarily have to play 3B either (though that'd be ideal if he could handle the position because he has a rocket) but 3B aren't that difficult to find whereas if we could flip McGehee to ATL in the offseason we could get a good pitching prospect on the verge of the majors (cuz Chipper's career is over).

 

[HiAndTight]

Just read something on JSO that said McGehee's defense is the worst for a 3B in the NL. Gamel wouldn't neccesarily have to play 3B either (though that'd be ideal if he could handle the position because he has a rocket) but 3B aren't that difficult to find whereas if we could flip McGehee to ATL in the offseason we could get a good pitching prospect on the verge of the majors (cuz Chipper's career is over).

I do not believe that McGehee's defense is the worst for an 3B in the NL. I missed the article on JSO, and if you have it handy, I'd love to read it(not that I don't believe you, or you need to post the article for me to believe you as is sometimes the case when someone asks, I'm just genuinely eager to see what it says).

 

McGehee in the last few weeks in particular has been playing extraordinarily well at 3rd base in terms of getting a quick first step, making some nice diving plays and getting a guy out at 1st.

 

Now I know, I know, a few plays does not a characteristic make, nor does McGehee have what anyone would describe as good range, but I also think it's taken a bit too far. I think at the end of the day, he's a guy who's got a great first step, particularly to his right, a cannon for an arm so he can go behind the bag and make some very impressive throws.

 

I still agree he's below average, and I think Gamel would be much better at getting to balls, and I think he'd be a much better hitter, I DO also believe that Casey McGehee can more than hold his own at 3rd base.

[HiAndTight]

With Fielder the likeliest of all Brewers to be moved in the offseason, and Gamel still not adequate defensively at 3B, there is no surplus at 3B. As bad a year as Fielder's had in run production, his bat and the subsequent respect he gets from opposing pitchers will be sorely missed next season. I think the Brewers will need to have some experience in the middle of their order, so I'd hang on McGehee. I don't expect either Gamel or McGehee to be moved barring a deal that blows them away.

A-Why is Gamel "still not adequate defensively at 3rd"? Trying not to sound like a jerk here, but I can only assume you haven't seen him play this year. I CAN assume you saw him play last year, and unless you're allowing pre-conceived notions to dictate your evaluation of him, you had to have come away from his short time at 3rd being very impressed when compared to the scouting reports he recieved.

 

I was stunned that this guy who looked like he had just exceptional footwork, a cannon for an arm, an made some incredibly spectacular plays over there showing he's got everything needed to be a fantastic 3B in the bigs.

 

On top of him of course we've got;

Taylor Green who I believe is Mark Loretta with more power, Cutter Dykstra, Zealous Wheeler, by FAR heads and shoulders the best of the lot, Brett Lawrie, a guy whom after watching him play at Atppleton I've been his leading advocate offensively and I think he's a guy who would just thrive playing 3rd base where his bigger lower half, which is expected to get even bigger, incredibly soft hands, a strong and accurate arm. The problem is at 2nd, he doesn't have the quickness required to play there, or he won't as he grows in my opinion.

 

And of course I've left other options within the organization out, but 3rd base most assuredly is not a weak position behind Mr. McGehee.

[Never Outhustled]

McGehee's range extends about 1 step in either direction, and his arm is pedestrian. I see many bring up the fact that he was once a top defender, and thats maybe true. However, thats completely irrelevent since that was at least 15 pounds ago. McGehee continues to play over-weight, he done it for 2 years now, and it kills his movement skills. Since the Brewers have sent a clear message to their players that being over-weight and out of shape is acceptable, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

My 1st move if I was GM would be to send the 2 fat boys out the door.

[Invader3K]

Since the Brewers have sent a clear message to their players that being

over-weight and out of shape is acceptable, I don't see that changing

anytime soon.

 

Yeah, since they asked Fielder to make sure he was in good shape before his two year contract extension last season, right? Obviously they don't give a rip.

 

McGehee doesn't really look much different than he did as a Cub, though. I think people get bent out of shape about a player's size. Being big and muscular doesn't necessarily equal being fat/out of shape.

[Never Outhustled]

Since the Brewers have sent a clear message to their players that being over-weight and out of shape is acceptable, I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

Yeah, since they asked Fielder to make sure he was in good shape before his two year contract extension last season, right? Obviously they don't give a rip.

They offered Fielder a massive extension despite the fact he's still grossly out of shape. How fat do you think he'll be once he get his longterm deal? And to say Fielder was in good shape last year is a joke right? He was in better shape than 2008, but he was still dangerously fat.

 

 

[Invader3K]

Define "dangerously fat?" Dude has always been massive, and quite muscular. I suppose you know his BMI and body fat percentage, though?

[sveumrules]

Dangerous to a buffet line or a catcher about to get steamrolled. These guys aren't athletes...they're baseball players.

 

On topic, I'm ok with Casey. For his cost he brings decent offense and poor defense to the hot corner which is fine by me. At the same time after Fielder he is probably our best chip so if we could get a quality arm for him i'd pull the trigger in a second and then you can fill RF/3B/1B with Hart/Gamel/FA. That also gives you some flexibility positionally on who you can sign.

[igor67]

Somewhere along the line in here the discussion started to morph (shocking for a 3 page thread I know). But sveumrules comment about Casey being our second best chip is exactly the point. I don't think in the wide variety of threads I can recall anybody saying Casey wasn't a good find or a valued part of the team. Exactly the opposite he is rather valuable. However, you have to give to get on the trade market. The only potential alternative to trading the improve would be some variety of playing out the next year or two and hope that we can string together enough starters off the farm (plus whatever Prince nets) to get back squarely into contention. So the question in my mind becomes how do you change the complexion of the team into a contender. I've stated a few times that I don't think focusing strictly on getting better pitching is going to work because our current defense seems to turn #3/4 starters into #4/5. Which would mean needing at least 3 total #1/2 quality pitchers.

 

Anyway Casey is pretty good and therefore has a nice chunk of value, which is only a starting point for why he might (you never can tell who another team might like more) make a good trade candidate. 1) The low cost and proven combo is really hard to find these days, and low cost frankly looks like the new market inefficiency in my book. 2) We have plausible alternatives to give similar value at his position. 3) I worry about his aging curve. Late bloomers relying a lot on plate discipline more than underlying skills can evaporate pretty quick. Even a little bit of lost movement and he might be locked into 1st base with a rather limited bat for 1st. Suddenly not so valuable.