dog cats and other pet stuff.

[TooLiveBrew]

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l7f23eDjFv1qb0fx9o1_500.jpg

 

Everything I do is so innate, I knew it at least 8 years before you tried to teach it to me

[Thurston Fluff]

The more I think about it mothership the more I agree with you on a certain level. I think my issue with Pryor isn't the concept of operant conditioning as it is the application. I think she oversimplifies it. Operant conditioning as shown in the Pavlov's dog experiment was a direct one to one relationship because it eliminated all other elements to the experiment than the bell ringing before it got fed. It was quit easy for the dog to establish the relationship between bell and food.

Karen Pryor essentially substituted the bell for the clicker and believed it should work the same. Yet she neglected to eliminate all the other environmental factors that the dog could be taking as a cue for the command. what you get with clicker training is a dog that works well in the setting the clicker was used in to teach the dog. I don't think it is a sure bet that translates to other situations. There are so many other factors the dog is taking in from his environment while being trained that what we think they are cuing in on may not be it at all. Dogs observe everything about a person and cue on what they believe to be the important factors for the situation. In clicker training you may think the clicker is the factor but it may be something as simple as the dog noticing you wear the same sneakers every time you have a training session and figures that it's time for him to follow the commands. Take away the sneakers and the dog is unsure of the situation thus the clicker is less useful. The dog may or may not have ever related the clicker as relevant to the situation.

The other real problem I have with whistles, clickers or shakers is if the dog does relate the command and the clicker you may need the clicker to get the dog to do the task. So it may be fine to clicker train for playing structured games but maybe less useful for general obedience training. Personally I have never had much luck with clickers, whistles and shakers other than to get the dog's attention. I only used it for one dog and stopped after she was two or so and it wasn't necessarily her specific technique. I read something of hers a while back after I did the clicker and already had an opinion of it. I am far from complete in my knowledge of it. If it works for you by all means use it.

 

All that said I do beleive she has some good info and it can be a very useful asset for anyone who wants to better understand human dog interactions.

[mothershipconnection]

With clicker training, the belief is that you have a combination of operant and Pavlovian conditioning. Operant conditioning involes the emission of behavior in the presence of a stimulus correlated with the availability of a reinforcer contingent upon that response. In Pavlovian, or classical conditioning, you have a once neutral stimulus which, through repeated pairing with a stimulus which elicits an unconditioned response/reflex, now elicits that response. So operant is stimulus-response-stmulus while Pavlovian/respondent/classical conditioning is stimulus-response.

Where clicker trainers see the overlap is that you're dealing with operant behavior, but there's something of a leap of faith performed in viewing the clicker, through pairing with edibles to now serve as a surrogate for that unconditioned reinforcing stimulus. Exactly how previously neutral stimuli come to serve as conditioned reinforcers is an unsettled question. There is some evidence that it is often a Pavlovian process, but also a bit which indicates that this simple temporal pairing is not sufficient.

[jjkoestler]

We brought our Bengal kittens home this weekend. Here's a few pictures of Yovani and Yoshimi.

 

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/6cf36f103f28d2ac6a02955fe7e5a41a58eb9347.jpg

 

 

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/e65269635bd7e6c299ee20a0ca0bcf8ef37cc56d.jpg

 

 

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/24426a3300d0d60296ee20abe64724ff8bed02fb.jpg

[Thurston Fluff]

Exactly how previously neutral stimuli come to serve as conditioned reinforcers is an unsettled question. There is some evidence that it is often a Pavlovian process, but also a bit which indicates that this simple temporal pairing is not sufficient.

 

Dang those two sentences require a couple readings to understand.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif I need to read that book again. I think I must be missing or forgetting parts of it. The only thing that sucks about reading a lot is keeping straight who said what. Am I correct in thinking we agree there is merit but maybe riding the line between the scientific process of conditioning and speculative hypothesis of how to apply said science?

[mothershipconnection]

Am I correct in thinking we agree there is merit but maybe riding the line between the scientific process of conditioning and speculative hypothesis of how to apply said science?

 

Yup. The clicker training camp has sufficiently demonstrated its efficacy when applied to an impressive range of behavior. However, the often misunderstand or play fast and loose with the basic research. They've run with what appears to be premature theory and may not be taking species-typical reflexes into account. There's also the topic of species preparedness. For example, you cannot reinforce the mating behavior of some species with food, or foraging with access to a mate.

[Thurston Fluff]

However, the often misunderstand or play fast and loose with the basic research. They've run with what appears to be premature theory and may not be taking species-typical reflexes into account.

 

Two sentences and you summed up what I was trying to say in about four posts and failed. Guess that shows who is a more articulate, clearer thinker.

[TooLiveBrew]

Our dog had a cluster seizure last night (one seizure that looks like multiple smaller ones), which is the first seizure she's ever had. Took her in to the vet, and when the blood work came back later in the day, they found that she's basically breaking down. Irregular kidney functions, liver enzymes are way up (they'd been gradually climbing as she's aged; she's been on meds for it for ~2 yrs. now), and she's anemic (body not producing enough red blood cells).

 

The seizure was scary, and there's literally nothing you can do as an owner but try to make sure the dog isn't near a flight of stairs, or around anything else that could hurt him/her while they're having the seizure. She whimpered leading up to the onsets of the seizure. When they came, her limbs would all stiffen, she'd arch her neck, there would be some (seemingly) involuntary barking & whimpering, and she lost bowel control. The onsets wouldn't last any longer than 15-30 seconds, even though they seemed much longer. About 5-10 minutes would pass between each of the physical displays of the seizure, and she wound up having to endure 5 strong episodes of it before it passed.

 

In all, the ordeal lasted about 30-45 min. She got her body into some really contorted & uncomfortable looking positions throughout this process, and I didn't move her out of fear of hurting her. The vet told me today that it's absolutely ok to reposition a dog on its side if it looks uncomfortably twisted up. The only caveat is a good general warning about dog seizures, which is that the dog might bite someone/something that gets near its mouth, since it has no real body control or awareness of what's happening. Always be careful with this, as a dog won't be conscious that it's biting you.

 

She was really dazed & out of it all last night. Couldn't balance or walk well, really had a 'far away' look in her eyes. We found out that, as seizures go, hers was pretty mild. You know, for a freaking seizure. She just wasn't herself last night at all, and was completely exhausted after the seizure, which is 100% normal. She basically just slept after everything passed, which was around 8:15p or so last night.

 

She was lethargic again today, but had her personality back & seemed as normal as one could be given the circumstances. She even had a little spring in her step when she found out she was going for a ride in the car. She had energy, albeit nervous & scared energy, at the vet, and afterward. The vet told us we need to keep her physical activity to a minimum, and that she could also have more seizures. The activity & oxygen use is what the red blood cell production can't keep up with... which is a bit ironic since taking her to the dog park during this year's spring/summer/fall completely reinvigorated her. Before the dog park, she was lethargic, getting skin rashes, & assorted other health problems probably mostly due to stress & boredom. The dog park changed that 100%, and she's been as happy as she ever has over the past 8 or so months.

 

She's 14 years & 7 mos. old now, and she's had a great life. It's still hard to know that we'll be losing a friend in the next few months. The vet will take another look at her tomorrow to see if she has any specific liver disease, and might benefit from any medication; might be able to add a few more months onto her life.

 

I provided the details I did in case anyone else's dog is unfortunate enough to have a seizure -- sorry I rambled. Really just wanted to vent about my dog's rough situation. She's happy, but tired. She's also still awesome, and I'm going to miss her.

 

 

EDIT: added more description of what her symptoms were like during the seizure. The vet also told me that it's very important to time the seizure -- duration, and in the case of a cluster seizure, how much time passes between the visible writhing & seizing.

[Thurston Fluff]

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/ThurstonFluff/gladys2.jpg

 

Didn't know if this belonged in the winter weather thread or pet thread but thought it was a pretty cool shot. Little blurry but still thought it showed Gladys at her best.

[flosses like fossas]

we recently adopted two kittens - a gray/black tiger with a white belly and a black and white button tail - and they're tons of fun. we're going to need a bigger apartment soon.

[Funketown]

Just wanted to bump this because I'm looking for some advice.

 

Our mini Aussie is now 13 months old and he is entering the dreaded "teenager" stage we were worried about (from 12-18 months, we've heard that Aussies are stubborn, strong-willed, and rebellious). He has loads of energy and in the past he behaved very well off leash and I had no qualms about taking him off leash every night at the local high school to throw him tennis balls and get him some exercise. The last couple times I took him out though, he wouldn't listen to me. When he sees a bird he goes nuts and chases it with little regard for my commands to him. Most of the time he is very responsive, but if he is chasing a bird or squirrel his mind seems to be so focused that he is completely unaware of everything else around him. Anybody have any suggestions as to how I can work on this behavior? It's really difficult to get him the exercise he needs when it's consistently 90 degrees out, so I'm hoping we can get back to playing ball at night.

 

Thanks

[stoutdude04]

Just make sure there is a consequence when he doesnt listen. He is playing with you and seeing how much he can get away with. I used to let my dog off the leash and the same thing happened. I finally got a pinch collar and worked on basic commands. Come and no being the big ones. Just make sure that you are frequent with your training. If you tell your dog to sit and he doesnt there should be a consequence.(not just yelling of course)

[Funketown]

Thanks. We've just started working on some more commands with him. I think it's a good idea to start working more seriously on the "come" command. We relaly hadn't worked on it much in the past because he would always come to us when we called his name in the past. It's amazing how much these dogs are like human children; once they reach their teen years they act like they've forgotten everything they've been taught.

[Menotti80]

i would recommend a halti head collar if he is rambunctious on walks. it works very well for our large "puppy" (15 month old 95lb coonhound)

 

if the wide open spaces become an issue, I would train him off the leash in a smaller area and increase the size of the area up to the local high school.

[1992casey]

Is there a fenced in dog park around? Because of the distraction of other people and dogs, it probably wouldn't be a great place for training. But you'd be covering the exercise issue.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I've had a few 'off leash dogs', and I've had a few that could never be trusted off leash.

 

In my experience, which granted, is limited, those dogs will just never learn to override their instincts and NOT chase.

 

One thing that really bothers me (should be in the things that are bothering you thread) are dogs that constantly run, and are not on a leash. My neighbor has two little ankle biters that CONSTANTLY come in my yard and bite and bark at us, and they are NEVER on leash. They yell at the dogs, and smack them, and really, it gets old.

 

Something to think about is that while you might be sure that your dog won't bite, a kid or stranger isn't sure of that.

 

My dog, a 3 year old Shiba, ALWAYS runs when given a chance, so he gets no more chances. I just don't want to put him or other people or animals at risk. Even in our fenced in back yard, he's on a 30 foot run, as he's capable of climbing fences.

 

I guess I sound like a fuddy, but if a dog is a runner, and if it can't be broken of that habit, it really should be leashed all the time. I'm sure there's leash laws in most municipalities anyways.

[TooLiveBrew]

Even in our fenced in back yard, he's on a 30 foot run, as he's capable of climbing fences.

 

Holy crap!

 

 

EDIT:

She's 14 years & 7 mos. old now, and she's had a great life. It's

still hard to know that we'll be losing a friend in the next few

months. The vet will take another look at her tomorrow to see if she

has any specific liver disease, and might benefit from any medication;

might be able to add a few more months onto her life.

Oh yeah, and this dog is still alive & well. Made it through the seizure, and then later an inner ear disorder (similar to vertigo in humans, common in elderly dogs). She's a-ok for being 15+ -- yes, she made it to her birthday in April. I forgot to update http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[DuWayne Steurer]

Even in our fenced in back yard, he's on a 30 foot run, as he's capable of climbing fences.

 

Holy crap!

We have a 6' wood dog ear fence, and all along the inside, there's 2 horizontal slats, about 1 1/2 foot up, and then maybe 4 foot up. They're only 1" pieces, but he'll take a running start at the corner, and then jump/jump in the corner from one panel to the other, and use those slats as ladder steps, just like a cat would, and then he'll just jump over the other side and take the fall. Not bad for a little 23 pound ball of fluff, IMO of course.

 

Anyone else here ever had a shiba can tell you, they're amazing escape artists, and will put all their energy and through process into figuring a way out.

 

And glad to hear your dog's doing better!

[Funketown]

Is there a fenced in dog park around? Because of the distraction of other people and dogs, it probably wouldn't be a great place for training. But you'd be covering the exercise issue.

Yeah, there are actually three within five miles of us and an awesome one five minutes from our apartment. The Chapel Hill/Carrboro area is really dog friendly so it's a really nice place to be with a dog. He does love going to the park and I try to take him as often as I can, but my wife and I dropped down to only one car when we moved and when she's at work I can't go with him to the park. He loves jogging with me, but unless it's before 9:00 AM or after 8:00 PM it's just too hot to run.

 

He's really good about not going up to other people or dogs when I have him off leash (although I don't take him in crowded areas), so I think the whole bird chasing thing is going to be tough to train away because it probably is instinct. I'm hoping this is just part of his teenage rebellious stage, as I've heard Aussies can be a boatload of work from 1 year to 18 months, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

 

TLB - good to hear about your dog, he must be a pretty resilient guy.

[TooLiveBrew]

Thanks guys.

 

 

Anyone else here ever had a shiba can tell you, they're amazing escape artists, and will put all their energy and through process into figuring a way out.

 

That's amazing. I hadn't heard that about Shibas.

[Thurston Fluff]

Anyone else here ever had a shiba can tell you, they're amazing escape artists, and will put all their energy and through process into figuring a way out.

 

Shibas are miniature Akitas. Add 80 pounds and an extra 5' of height an hind legs and see how good of a fence you need. Fortunately for us he's more interested in his back yard than getting out.

 

If you tell your dog to sit and he doesnt there should be a consequence.(not just yelling of course)

 

Most of the problem with yelling is once the dog responds you have to stop yelling and reward him for responding instead of continuing like they still understand what you are mad at them about. They don't. They would think you are now mad at them for heeding your call or be completely confused as to what you want. that only leads to them tuning you out in the future. A quick sharp NO or HEY is not a bad thing. A continuous yelling as the dog cowers beneath your feet is not good. Overall I don't believe yelling is a good way to go with an Aussie.

 

Just make sure there is a consequence when he doesnt listen. He is playing with you and seeing how much he can get away with.

 

That may or may not be true. It could be as simple as they are so focused on somethign they really don't hear anyhting else. The key is to penetrate that wall of focus or misbehavior. Herders, Borders and Aussies in particular, generally don't do well with negative training. It could do more harm then good.

 

Given the breed I tend to think rewards for good behavior is better than consequences for bad is best when training. It should be fun for the dog not stressful. Try shakers or whistles at home when calling the dog to you. Then give him his most favorite treat or toy. The shaker should be loud enough to be heard even in a mist of excitement. The dog's natural reaction to come to you once he hears that should take over.

It also could be just not enough work. That breed probably should get a couple hours a day. Not just a walk or a ride but actual real work.

I have a border collie who is insane. Aussies are not much behind that energy level. I have developed a couple things I can do with her in the back yard that gets her all the work she needs to be happy. No dog parks no off leash in open areas needed anymore. If you wish pm me and I'll give you some things you can do in your backyard that is both fun for the dog and entertaining enough for you to actually want to work that much with your dog. Oh and it's cheap to do.

[Funketown]

Thanks a lot BUC. I knew you had a Border Collie so I was hoping you'd be able to chime in. We were told pretty much the same stuff about positive reinforcement with Aussies, so we've always tried to go that route. I do think the summer is really tough on him, when we were in Iowa and he was 9-12 months he would run and fetch at the dog park for over an hour straight. It's just so hot here in the summer that when I take him to the park and throw him a ball he'll play hard for 15 minutes and then take a nap under a picnic table while he cools down. I'll shoot you a PM later about some exercises if you don't mind, that would probably be really helpful.

[JumpinMacFlash]

I'd echo a lot of what BUC said. I also have border collie (also insane) and he requires a lot of exercise.

Our success came early because my wife and I are both runners, so we didn't have too many problems keeping the energy level in check. Also, Frisbee, Frisbee, Frisbee. We don't live on a farm, don't raise cattle, so we needed to find work for our border collie, and fetching a Frisbee was the best type of "work" we could find. Whether behind our apartment building or in the park, he loves to do it and (since it's work to him) he stays incredibly focused on the Frisbee and ignores any other distractions. Whether it's other dogs or people, he avoids them completely and we can keep him off a leash (going for walks is another story).

The best thing about border collies and Aussies is also the worst thing: their intelligence. Our dog is absolutely brilliant, to a frustrating degree. He's quick to learn and very willing to learn, but he tests our patience by pushing boundaries and seeing if we'll keep him in line. I know our dog doesn't react well to negative training. Raised voices make him nervous and he cowers. Instead, sharp "no's" or whistles work well along with keeping a firm, yet even-keeled tone. They require so much effort, but they're incredibly rewarding dogs to have.

[Funketown]

Have either of you (flash or BUC) ever done any herding? Back when we lived in Iowa, I had an opportunity to take him out to herd some sheep but I felt like he was just too small at the time (he's a mini and he was only around 18-20 pounds at the time, now he's up to 23 and we're hoping he'll fill out to 30 pounds eventually).

 

He is an incredibly rewarding dog, and despite the amount of work he requires I think I'll always own a Border Collie or an Aussie.

[Thurston Fluff]

I didn't notice the response until after I PM'ed you Funketwon but if he only started doing that in the heat then it probably is just that. Even my dog takes more breaks in the summer. Well now that she's middle aged anyway. No I haven't done any herding but I have a friend who herds ducks with his.