I want Paul DePodesta to be the New GM of the Brewers

[logan82]

As far as the DR academy goes. I read that in this thread on Saturday night, at the same time I was chatting in the In Game chat. Baldkin said I'm missing that Wendy Selig forced Melvin's hand and essentially forced him to close it down so the franchise could be sold for more money. My question, was if she forced him to close it down in 2003, then why did it take til 2009 to re-open, when Attanasio bought the team in 2004? Nobody's given me an answer on that. In fact, the only answer I've gotten sounds like it was regurgitated from the Brewers front office staff themselves and I quote "Instead of spending a lot of money on a lot of players, we would spend the same amount on fewer and higher-quality players and bring them right to the States." said Brewers director of player development Reid Nichols. Quoted from this article, sixth paragraph down http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090112&content_id=3740907&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

They did give you an answer and you said so yourself. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong or bad.

[colbyjack]

I just don't see how you can feel this way. I asked this earlier and you haven't responded yet, but I'd like to know if the approach was quality over quantity. Then why did Pascual and Peralta not appear until 2006 in the Brewers Arizona league team, when the academy was shut down in 2003? From what you're saying they chose to shut down the academy so they could make these signings and yet it took them 3 years to find their way to camp?

 

They really missed out on only one year. They closed mid-way to late in 2003 and started signing prominent players at the end of 2005. The beginning of the signing period for Latin American free agents is early July, and you have to wait until a player turns 16 to sign them, so technically the Brewers only missed out in 2004. Without looking I don't know who they signed during that time (or why they didn't), although I do know the draft-and-follow process was still alive and well that year, when the Brewers were spending good chunks of money on players such as Lorenzo Cain.

 

I do agree with your stance that the team should have tried to fix what they had going prior to 2003 then to simply shut it down. However, that's in hindsight, as I also remember thinking at the time that what they intended to do seemed like a pretty good idea, so just because it didn't work as well as they hoped (and again, I stress that it's not as bad as being suggested given the emergence of three prominent Latin American players during that time) doesn't mean they failed necessarily.

 

Again, I have my own reasons to question Melvin's direction at this point in time, but overall it's hard not to be pleased with the team's vastly improved player development efforts. Yes, it sucks that the team doesn't have more pitching right now, but it's also pretty impressive that they have an almost entirely homegrown starting lineup that is currently 3rd in the NL in runs scored.

 

If you haven't read them already, these two stories give some background to the team's efforts in the Dominican:

 

http://milwaukee.brewers....s_mil&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil

http://milwaukee.brewers....ffiliateId=CommentWidget

[bill hAll Star]

For those that think what Depo and Beane did really wasn't as good as the book said and it was actually Zito, Mulder, etc. I would have to disagree.

 

What Beane did was actually bury himself to the point of having to re-invent what he's doing.

 

The Yankees had Swisher leading off the other night. Weeks leads off. Teams with much larger payrolls get the idea of what Beane was going for. 15 years ago, teams would have gone strictly with slap-hitting leadoff guys and a "contact hitter" that could bunt #2 more often than not. Not saying every single team did it, but Beane brought the widespread statistical analysis into the game. Now he's getting beaten by it since 90% of the league, sometimes more, can outspend him.

 

He seems to be trying for the defense/ground ball/pitching run prevention game with his team this year. He has bats, namely Carter, approaching in the minors. If most of Gonzalez, Cahill, Braden, Anderson, and their up-and-comers stay healthy, with their defense and hitters approaching, they may be the challenger to the Rangers in 2011. We've seen the run prevention go a bit too far with Jack Z in Seattle, but I like that these guys are looking into those things. Some of Melvin's pitching moves make me think that he doesn't look into the sabermetrics much there.

[Thurston Fluff]

Z didn't land pitching because he rarely drafted it, the best players available when he selected were hitters. In the 6 years from 2000-2005, Z only 9 picks in the 1st 2 rounds, and only used 3 of them on pitchers.

 

This to me was why he failed to being in good pitchers. He jsut didn't get enough of them. sure he thought the best player available at the time was a hitter but was that really true? How does he go aobut evaluating the value of pitcehrs to hitters? Obviously he was worng on that value. jack Z. has ot show he can actaully win as a GM befor eI'm willing to give him credit for being better than his former boss. Truth be told I hope he does but he has yet to show that.

I think we also have to keep in mind some of the Jack Z. most successful drafts had very high picks so they should have a higher success rate. Which is why we shouldn't read too much into the success of Tampa right now as the GM being some sort of genius. If he has continued success over the next 5 or so years when those drafts give way to lower pick ones we can make a better evaluation of his talents.

 

As far as DPodesta goes his time in LA didn't really show he was better than Doug. To get rid of someone means you lose the consitnacy within the organization. To lose that should only be done if there is an obvious upgrade to be made by such a move. Sal Bando getting the ax was appropriate. Doug not so much.

The teams in the Brewers situation who do the best are the ones who have maintained a nice consistent approach over a long period of time. Minnesota comes to mind. Ones who change coaches and GM's like socks don't. Pittsburgh comes to mind. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. Those who continue to run a team like it is end up spinning their wheels in an ever changing environment with no changes in results.

[mletto157]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Melvin bring to Texas like half of the teams good starters this year? He was fired before he even had a chance to see his pitching draftees develop.

[Ennder]

You can put a team full of sluggers on the field with mediocre pitching and find success as long as the defense isn't bad as well.

 

Ennder,

 

what is your definition of success? If its win a title then I can't think of any teams who fit this formula who have won a title in the last 20 years. If its win the division then I'm sure there are a few examples of teams with this make up who have won a division, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Phillies in 2008 had very mediocre starting pitching outside of Hamels.

 

Rockies in 2007 didn't have a single starter with a sub 4 ERA.

 

Cardinals in 2006 had very mediocre pitching outside of Carpenter.

 

 

What you can't do is have mostly mediocre pitching and then a mediore bullpen and bad defense. It just makes it too hard to overcome with offense. We haven't developed many bullpen arms, we've had bad defensive players and we haven't drafted many good pitchers. You can't survive on offense alone.

[Baldkin]

Phillies in 2008 had a 4.23 ERA from their starters, good for 7th in the NL.

2006 the Cardinals had the 12th best ERA in the NL.

 

You can win with mediocre starting pitching. You just need good defense and good hitting. The Brewers have good hitting, but have terrible defense and had an awful bullpen the first 2 months of the season.

[Thundercat32]

They did give you an answer and you said so yourself. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's wrong or bad.

 

logan,

 

uh... not exactly. I asked why did it take 5 years to recognize the mistake and reopen the DR academy? I can understand Melvin was under orders to shut it down and keep it closed while Selig owned the team. However, the club was sold to Attanasio in '04, and the wheels didn't get in motion to renovate the Phillies old academy til 2009. So my question was why the time delay? This was a question, solely b/c Baldkin called me an idiot, essentially, saying Melvin had no choice he had to close the academy. Which I didn't originally realize it was a directive from Wendy Selig (per Baldkin). I still haven't gotten a reason from Baldkin or anyone else defending Melvin's decision to keep the academy closed why the delay, if the blame should go to Wendy Selig.

 

The only answers I have gotten is regurgitated press clippings from the Brewers front office about why it was shut down originally. Not why there was a delay reopening a DR academy.

[jackalope02ca]

What delay would you be referring to Thundercat? You have made a lot of assumptions without backing up anything you've had to say in this post. People provide you with what is available and you reject it. You are the one who assumes their was a delay in re-opening things when history shows the team tried a different route by signing higher profile players like Escobar, etc. I for one seriously wonder if we would have been better off staying that route and signing higher profile guys and a lot less of them. I'm not convinced we need a team in the DSL. I think we'd be better served spending the money on scouting some areas of the world that aren't scouted as heavy and then spending more on the draft and signing free agents. The biggest problem of all is that MLB doesn't have a world draft and some kids get to be free agents and others don't.

[Thundercat32]

I just don't see how you can feel this way. I asked this earlier and you haven't responded yet, but I'd like to know if the approach was quality over quantity. Then why did Pascual and Peralta not appear until 2006 in the Brewers Arizona league team, when the academy was shut down in 2003? From what you're saying they chose to shut down the academy so they could make these signings and yet it took them 3 years to find their way to camp?

 

They really missed out on only one year. They closed mid-way to late in 2003 and started signing prominent players at the end of 2005. The beginning of the signing period for Latin American free agents is early July, and you have to wait until a player turns 16 to sign them, so technically the Brewers only missed out in 2004. Without looking I don't know who they signed during that time (or why they didn't), although I do know the draft-and-follow process was still alive and well that year, when the Brewers were spending good chunks of money on players such as Lorenzo Cain.

 

I do agree with your stance that the team should have tried to fix what they had going prior to 2003 then to simply shut it down. However, that's in hindsight, as I also remember thinking at the time that what they intended to do seemed like a pretty good idea, so just because it didn't work as well as they hoped (and again, I stress that it's not as bad as being suggested given the emergence of three prominent Latin American players during that time) doesn't mean they failed necessarily.

 

Again, I have my own reasons to question Melvin's direction at this point in time, but overall it's hard not to be pleased with the team's vastly improved player development efforts. Yes, it sucks that the team doesn't have more pitching right now, but it's also pretty impressive that they have an almost entirely homegrown starting lineup that is currently 3rd in the NL in runs scored.

 

If you haven't read them already, these two stories give some background to the team's efforts in the Dominican:

 

http://milwaukee.brewers....s_mil&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil

http://milwaukee.brewers....ffiliateId=CommentWidget

colby,

I'm a little fuzzy on the math of mid to late 2003 to end of 2005, being essentially 1 year, but I didn't know about the international signing period so I guess that makes sense. Still a year is an eternity in the life of organization's farm system development.

I can kinda see what you're thinking and I agree you can't be afraid to try different ideas from the norm b/c of what others might think. You have to go with what you think is best. The part that I think you're missing from that idea, is the live with the consequences part. Well intentioned people are fired from their employment everyday. And the sports industry is most likely the toughest industry in the country when it comes to results or you're fired. Look at Don Wakamatsu, fired after only a year and a half on the job. Is it his fault a bad team couldn't win baseball games? So the whole thing about we don't really need to worry about results, lets just look and see if they were trying is kinda absurd imo.

And one thing I want to say, this is for anyone who thinks the DR academy closing wasn't a big deal and just trying a new idea, too bad it didn't work out, those things happen, yada yada yada.... Rolando Valles, who works for the Brewers as a Latin American Liaison and also at their current DR academy said this regarding Rolando Pascual (the highly touted 2005 Dominican pitching prospect) "He could have benefited from this program if it was in place and he took advantage of it.". Thats quoted from this article http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100310&content_id=8745114&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil. Valles, basically says that young latin american players struggle adjusting to being uprooted from their homes, family, and culture at a young age (usually 16-18 yrs old) and sent to a professional team in the States. He knows, b/c he had the same struggles himself. Thats the whole reason academies were started in the first place, to help ease this transition process. Melvin and the Brewers front office, decided to by pass that process and instead use all of their money to sign the best prospect available. Then later a member of their own organization says that prospect needed a place like the current academy to succeed. He also says in that article Pascual is a bit of a rebel off of the field and has trouble staying out of trouble. So what a colossal error in judgement, yet its being overlooked and defended, with stuff like yeah, but you try things and sometimes they don't succeed.

And as far as the 3rd most runs in the NL. Aren't you a little worried that type of talent won't continue to come in with Jack Z out of the picture?

[RockCoCougars]

For those that think what Depo and Beane did really wasn't as good as the book said and it was actually Zito, Mulder, etc. I would have to disagree.

 

What Beane did was actually bury himself to the point of having to re-invent what he's doing.

 

The Yankees had Swisher leading off the other night. Weeks leads off. Teams with much larger payrolls get the idea of what Beane was going for. 15 years ago, teams would have gone strictly with slap-hitting leadoff guys and a "contact hitter" that could bunt #2 more often than not. Not saying every single team did it, but Beane brought the widespread statistical analysis into the game. Now he's getting beaten by it since 90% of the league, sometimes more, can outspend him.

 

He seems to be trying for the defense/ground ball/pitching run prevention game with his team this year. He has bats, namely Carter, approaching in the minors. If most of Gonzalez, Cahill, Braden, Anderson, and their up-and-comers stay healthy, with their defense and hitters approaching, they may be the challenger to the Rangers in 2011. We've seen the run prevention go a bit too far with Jack Z in Seattle, but I like that these guys are looking into those things. Some of Melvin's pitching moves make me think that he doesn't look into the sabermetrics much there.

I disagree. I still say Billy Beane is a fraud, his mystique is more the product of good timing and luck than his statistical acumen. In my opinion, he's Sal Bando with street cred with the young stat crowd. How many championships have his teams won? For that matter, when was their last winning season? Basically, Beane inherited a team rife with young talent Chavez, Tejada, Giambi, etc. and then got lucky and drafted two college pitchers back-to-back with high draft picks who were basically major league ready right away in Mulder and Zito. How often does that happen? Even Sheets took a year and a half before he was ready?

 

By the way, leadoff hitters weren't always slap hitters before Beane and there are more than a few examples...Bobby Bonds, Rickey Henderson, Paul Molitor and Brady Anderson are a few that come to mind right away, but there are tons more.

[Thundercat32]

What delay would you be referring to Thundercat? You have made a lot of assumptions without backing up anything you've had to say in this post. People provide you with what is available and you reject it. You are the one who assumes their was a delay in re-opening things when history shows the team tried a different route by signing higher profile players like Escobar, etc. I for one seriously wonder if we would have been better off staying that route and signing higher profile guys and a lot less of them. I'm not convinced we need a team in the DSL. I think we'd be better served spending the money on scouting some areas of the world that aren't scouted as heavy and then spending more on the draft and signing free agents. The biggest problem of all is that MLB doesn't have a world draft and some kids get to be free agents and others don't.

Holy S, now I'm getting tilted.............................. ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGH

I tried to hold it in responding to logan's post, but you seriously could not have just read my response and then post that. Like seriously? are you just trying to tick me off or something?

I mean Jesus Christ bro, its obvious you haven't read this thread. I stated clearly (providing a link, so don't give me the I don't back anything up hogwash). Escobar was discovered in the Brewers' academy in 2003. He's a product of that academy's success and NOT the Brewers efforts to sign their own talent without an academy. Accuse me of not backing things up, not listening to ppl, and then you don't even get that right.

[Thundercat32]

Phillies in 2008 had a 4.23 ERA from their starters, good for 7th in the NL.

2006 the Cardinals had the 12th best ERA in the NL.

 

You can win with mediocre starting pitching. You just need good defense and good hitting. The Brewers have good hitting, but have terrible defense and had an awful bullpen the first 2 months of the season.

There's a major flaw in your argument. Your 5th starter can post a 15.00 ERA and your 4th starter a 12.00 ERA, you lose every game they start, but still make the playoffs with the worst team ERA in the league. And yet when the playoffs roll around who cares about your 4th or 5th starter? When the playoffs start its about who's your Ace thats going to take the hill 3 times in a series and the 2 other starters you'll throw in a series.

2008 Philadelphia Phillies - Cole Hamels 3.09 ERA Jamie Moyer 3.71 ERA Brett Myers 4.55 ERA. And if I'm remembering correctly Cole Hamels was unhittable in the playoffs (had to look this one up) 2008 mlb postseason era leaders, Cole Hamels 5th with a 1.80 ERA and Joe Blanton 10th with a 3.18 ERA (Yo #1 with a 0.00 ERA in 7 IP, btw). Hamels was 4-0 in 5 starts during the postseason.

I could look up the 2006 Cardinals, but I think it'd be the same thing.

[Thundercat32]

You can put a team full of sluggers on the field with mediocre pitching and find success as long as the defense isn't bad as well.

 

Ennder,

 

what is your definition of success? If its win a title then I can't think of any teams who fit this formula who have won a title in the last 20 years. If its win the division then I'm sure there are a few examples of teams with this make up who have won a division, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Phillies in 2008 had very mediocre starting pitching outside of Hamels.

 

Rockies in 2007 didn't have a single starter with a sub 4 ERA.

 

Cardinals in 2006 had very mediocre pitching outside of Carpenter.

 

 

What you can't do is have mostly mediocre pitching and then a mediore bullpen and bad defense. It just makes it too hard to overcome with offense. We haven't developed many bullpen arms, we've had bad defensive players and we haven't drafted many good pitchers. You can't survive on offense alone.

You're making some good points and I can see what you're thinking. I guess its true, but I'd still take all 3 of those rotations over the projected 2011 Brewers rotation, ainec. Also, ERA isn't the be all and end all of pitching stats. It actually just scratches the surface, maybe later today if I can remember I'll look up the '07 Rockies park adjusted ERA and see how that rates, I'd be willing to bet its significantly better.

[jackalope02ca]

Here's a better question for you then Thundercat. You get ticked off when no one agrees with you, you totally miss the point on everything. Let's simplify it for you then. Why would you want to replace Melvin who is one of the better GM's in the game? Take a look at the positives he's brought to the team which far outweight the negatives. No one is perfect and we already have one of the best. Actually the whole thread is really pointless as we currently don't have a GM opening. Or is this just your way to try to get to 100 posts as quickly as possible?

[mletto157]

Oh come on jack... that's a little harsh, don't you think?

 

Although IMO, the point you're actually making is valid though. The problem is if MA did actually fire DM - how can we be sure the replacement he hires is actually better? We can dream about who we would all like to see him replaced with; but the fact of the matter is, with one of the better GM's in the game... we'd most likely (probably about 75% or more chances) hire someone worse than him.

 

Also, thundercat, you never responded to my earlier post about the Rangers better starters this year actually being DM draftees. So IMO, your entire point of starting this thread gets rendered useless when you realize that.

 

DM started off this re-building process drafting for offense. I can definitely argue he should have had more value on defense with that offense... but what does the common fan really come to a baseball game for? They want to see homeruns, they want to see offense. Once our first wave came in, and started producing, fans started filling the seats again, and baseball was back in Milwaukee. This is probably the most important thing to them from a business standpoint. After this happens you can focus more on the other things. Hence why the larger focus on pitching and even defense in the last few years. A re-build like the Brewers had to go through probably takes a good 10-15 years.

[Thundercat32]

I totally miss the point on everything.

fyp

[Thundercat32]

mletto,

 

yeah bro I saw your post, but that was going to take some time to really look at Melvin's pitching draft history with the Rangers. I did a quick look and CJ Wilson was drafted during the last year Melvin was GM. I think he should get credit for CJ, even tho the organization tried to turn him into a setup man. Colby Lewis is another story tho, he was drafted by Melvin, but then released (after Melvin was fired) bounced around from team to team and wound up in Japan. He was considered a "miss" until this season back with the Rangers, but I think you have to give Jon Daniels the credit for recognizing Lewis' transformation in Japan and also outbidding the other teams for his services.

 

Melvin, had nothing to do with Cliff Lee, Tommy Hunter, Scott Feldman, Derek Holland, Rich Harden, or Neftali Feliz or any of the other bullpen arms. So really its just 1 guy on the Rangers current roster I'd give him credit for. I don't have the time to do it right now, but I'm going to take a look back and see how his pitching prospects panned out as a whole during his time as GM of the Rangers, I think that'd be a more accurate depiction of his success bringing pitching to the Rangers.

 

Also your point about "we can dream about who we would like (as GM)" thats all this thread is. I'm not suggesting what you're saying isn't true. The next GM could very well be much worse than Melvin. I'm just saying Paul DePodesta is the nuts and I'd really like to see him named the new GM of the Brewers.

[mletto157]

I'm just saying Paul DePodesta is the nuts and I'd really like to see him named the new GM of the Brewers.

 

In that case, I can say I probably wouldn't mind that. There were also a few others I wouldn't mind. But I also don't mind DM, and since most likely if fired, we would get someone worse... I think we should just hold on to him for a while and see what this teams looks like in a few years.

[TooLiveBrew]

I totally miss the point on everything.

fyp

This stuff is really annoying

[crewcrazy]

There's really no need for one line posts, double posting, and talking down to other members. I'll close this to let everyone cool off and review the "what kind of discussion is not allowed?" section of the Fan Forum Etiquette.