Time to take some risks with rotation?

[FVBrewerFan]

We've talked forever about avoiding the Suppan, Davis, Wolf type of signings in the future. Prince, etc. trade in the off-season may bring some pitching talent back, but I'm guessing that will be at the low minor league level. I, for one, have had enough of the Parra/Narveson/Bush experiment. Won't bother me if Parra gets another year in the rotation. At least he has the "stuff" to be a solid starter if he can get it figured out.

 

So that's Yo, Wolf, Parra and two holes in the rotation. Why not give guys like Peralta, Jeffress, even Heckathorn a shot? Seems to be a trend in MLB to bring guys up from A ball, and some have worked out some haven't. I guess my question is, what is their to lose? Sure, you need to be careful with their pitch count. Maybe you rotate Peralta and Heckathorn back and forth between the rotation and bullpen. Not ideal, but if they're going to get x amount of innings, why not in Milwaukee? Worst thing that can happen is they "can't hang" at the MLB level. But guys at this level are competitive. I don't buy the "bruised ego" theory, I think if anything it would help them understand what they need to work on. Why keep waiting for the future? Let these guys legitmately compete in Spring Training, and bring them up if they perform. I have watched Heckathorn in 3 starts, and he clearly "gets" how to pitch. He has control of all his pitches. What more is there to work on? Ditto for Jeffress and Peralta.

 

That's the first wave, then you still have Odorizzi, Rivas, Scarpetta, and whatever they can get for Prince waiting in the wings. I just don't see what another year of Narvy, Cappy, etc. does for this team short term or long term.

[Baldkin]

The best that can happen is you burn a year of service time and are forced to unload/extend them a year earlier than you would otherwise. For a club like the Brewers, who needs the cheap years to be the good years of a player, burning a year of service time for a guy who only throws 120 innings of C-grade ball because he isn't ready, isn't worth the risk of losing a year of A/B-grade 200 innings of solid starting pitching down the road.

 

At least.... that's what I think.

[pogokat]

eckathorn is clearly being fast tracked, so i'd guess we could see him next september...he looks on pace to open 2011 in AA, so he could be up even sooner...likewise jeffress...

 

a crazy move would be someone like odorizzi...

[GAME05]

if they're on the 40-man already and can be called up for late-season roster expansion, then sure. otherwise i agree with Baldkin. i wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Jeffress up for late-season callups because he's on our 40-man already, and if i'm not mistaken, it won't count against his service time if he's called up then (unless i'm wrong).

 

the minor-league guys are on stricter innings limits than ML guys are and would start to go over that if they were playing an extra month of ball for the big-league club. asking an A-ball guy to throw 40 innings more than he normally would is a good way to permanently injure his arm (aka Dusty Bakering).

[1992casey]

i'm not mistaken, it won't count against his service time if he's called up then

 

We examined that issue exhaustively a couple of years ago and concluded that September service time did count. Among other things, there's nothing in the CBA saying it doesn't. The way to double-check this would be to take a site that records service time (e.g. Cots) and compare recorded days to transaction dates.

 

I think the idea of September not counting as service time comes from the fact that September days don't count against rookie status. (September at bats and innings pitched do, though.)

[adambr2]

Right now I don't see a reason to rush any of these guys, none of which are really MLB-ready. Like someone said, we need to milk the 6+ years of service time on the ones that pan out, as much as possible.

 

Rivas is the closest and doesn't project at the front of the rotation. If we were to give anyone a few September starts, I would think it'd be him.

[wibadgers23]

Yes. Please, for the love of all that is good and holy, call up Rivas in September and give him a couple of starts. Just for something different at least. Watching Davis, Parra, and Narveson stink it up is getting old.

[rcon14]

Amaury Rivas would make sense, but Heckathorne/Jeffress/Peralta/Scarpetta, etc. shouldn't be thrown into the Major League rotation. There is a lot of truth IMO to that "shellshocked" theory, you just lose confidence in your stuff, it's like throwing a JV pitcher into a Varsity game, he's not prepared for it.

[Kelbysdaddy]

i say why not. give a couple of the kids some reward for doing really good this season. a couple of weeks really isnt going to hurt their service time since i'm sure they wont be on the opening day roster next year.

[YoungGeezy]

Rivas in the rotation, Rogers and Jeffress pitch out of pen here and there and no consideration should go to Peralta, Scarpetta, Heckathorn, and Odorizzi

[wishicouldhit]

One of Mevlin's strength seems to be waiver pick up. I wish he would try to find some buy low FA starters.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I think Melvin will get at least one guy who can be in the rotation in the Fielder trade. But otherwise I wouldn't mind giving one of the young guys a shot in the rotation. The others would be there in AAA in case of injury. Or we could stash one in the bullpen if need be.

[TooLiveBrew]

One of Mevlin's strength seems to be waiver pick up. I wish he would try to find some buy low FA starters.

Do you mean high-risk guys in FA (like Harden, etc.)? Otherwise Narveson is the most recent waiver wire SP addition.

[dadofandrew]

Sept time counts, of course it does. I believe it does not count as far as ROY eligibility.

 

And having a kid who has thrown a season's worth of innings pitch a meaningless game in the last month seems pointless. Asking for injury.

[danzig6767]

So that's Yo, Wolf, Parra and two holes in the rotation. Why not give guys like Peralta, Jeffress, even Heckathorn a shot? Seems to be a trend in MLB to bring guys up from A ball, and some have worked out some haven't.

Who are these pitchers being called up from A ball?

 

I'm not saying you are lying, but i haven't been following baseball outside of the Brewers super closely and if this is happening frequently, i missed it. Certainly teams sometimes do call up guys performing very well in AA and have for a long time, but i just don't recall this trend of calling up players from A ball, that's a huge jump unless it's say a college pitcher who was drafted high.

[logan82]

And having a kid who has thrown a season's worth of innings pitch a meaningless game in the last month seems pointless. Asking for injury.

 

I was thinking something along similar lines. Most of our MiLB pitchers have not built up enough innings to be pitching after their MiLB season is done.

[wishicouldhit]

Too live brew

 

by "buy low" FA starters, i was referring to someone that other GM arent high on. for example, last years Colby Lewis type of player that wont cost a lot . Maybe someone like Bedard or more likely someone that I have never heard of before. low risk, unknown reward

[nate82]

And having a kid who has thrown a season's worth of innings pitch a meaningless game in the last month seems pointless. Asking for injury.

 

I was thinking something along similar lines. Most of our MiLB pitchers have not built up enough innings to be pitching after their MiLB season is done.

Butler and Rivas should be OK more so Butler than Rivas though.

[JohnBriggs12]

As an old school baseball fan I love this topic.

 

Question for all those using words like "shellshocked, not major league ready" etc., do you realize that Charlie Finley built a 3 time world championship team by putting kids in the majors? Vida Blue debuted at age 19, won a Cy Young and an MVP at 21. Catfish Hunter threw 133 innings in the majors before turning 20, posted a sub 3 ERA at 21, and pitched a perfect game at 22. Blue Moon Odom also debuted at age 19. The opening day pitcher for the Brewers in their inaugural season, Lew Krausse, pitched for Finley's A's at age 18 pitching a 3 hit complete game shutout in his debut. Though Rollie Fingers didn't debut until 21, he never pitched an inning in AAA.

 

Baltimore was another team that brought up pitchers very young. Jim Palmer came up at 19 and joined a rotation that already had 20 year old Wally Bunker, who the year before at 19, had gone 19-5 with a 2.69 ERA. Milt Pappas, 18, and Dave McNally, 19, were other Orioles of note to hit the big leagues as teenagers.

 

Were young men more mature that they could handle being thrown into the big leagues earlier back then?

 

I think not. Back then, kids grew up exposed to a lot less than they are today.

 

Today, it's all about controlling arby years, protecting young arms etc. While that may be fine, that has led to the big leagues being filled with guys of lesser talent. I have no doubt there are guys in A ball with the stuff to get major league hitters out. Whether any are in the Brewer system is questionable, but it's certainly possible.

 

I would certainly bring up Rivas and Rogers sooner rather than later and let them start games. My gosh both will be 25 by January. Back in the day, that would be considered ancient for a rookie pitcher. What on earth do the Brewers gain continuing to start Dave Bush? Maybe, just maybe if Wolf has to miss a start or two, they go to either Rivas or Rogers instead of trotting Capuano out there again. If there's any other guys who would have to be added to the 40 man in the offseason anyway to avoid rule 5 exposure, why not bring them up in September if they had a good year. I'd certainly also bring up Jeffress because he's already on the roster too.

 

As for Butler, no. I don't think he's done enough to retain a 40 man spot.

[JohnBriggs12]

Just saw the Braves have put 27 year old Chris Resop on irrevocable waivers. He was rehabbing an oblique strain in AAA, where he was 6-3 with a 2.09 ERA, 1.04 WHIP, a .187 BAA, and had 91 K's in 82 innings.

 

He's just coming off one bad outing and hasn't done all that well in limited major league chances, but he'd certainly be a guy worth a look.

[monty57]

So that's Yo, Wolf, Parra and two holes in the rotation. Why not give guys like Peralta, Jeffress, even Heckathorn a shot?

 

For next year, in addition to the trio of Yo, Wolf and Parra, I'd expect Fielder to be traded in the offseason for a package including a "MLB ready" pitcher that will be in our rotation in 2011. That leaves one hole. I agree that Narveson has pretty much pitched his way into a LOOGY role, so I think the fifth spot should come from elsewhere. Rivas and Rogers battling for the spot is a logical step, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Melvin hit the free agent market, going after someone on a 1-2 year deal, putting Rivas and Rogers in AAA as insurance for the MLB club(unless Rogers is out of options and has to be on the MLB roster).

 

I would much rather see Jeffress back as a starter in AA/AAA next season rather than keeping him in the 'pen. If one of Rivas/Rogers starts the season as our #5 starter, with Jeffress and Rivas/Rogers in AAA, we will finally have some decent young pitchers ready to fill in for injuries or underperformance. No more stashing starting pitchers in the MLB bullpen and no more trotting out AAAA guys as sacrificial lambs whenever a MLB starter gets hurt.

[Invader3K]

I just don't see any reason to rush any of the guys from the minors right now. It would be one thing if the team was contending and needed the help. But at this point I think I'd rather go with what we have, let the young guys develop at a normal pace, and reset in the off-season. Calling up a Rivas or someone in September is fine, but rushing someone like Odorizzi just seems irresponsible at this point.

 

I know "back in the old days", guys came up and played a lot sooner. But that was before MLB was loaded with foreign born players. It was also when many guys were washed up by the time they were in their late 20's. I think there's a reason things are done how they are now.

[JohnBriggs12]

I just don't see any reason to rush any of the guys from the minors right now. It would be one thing if the team was contending and needed the help. But at this point I think I'd rather go with what we have, let the young guys develop at a normal pace, and reset in the off-season. Calling up a Rivas or someone in September is fine, but rushing someone like Odorizzi just seems irresponsible at this point.

 

I know "back in the old days", guys came up and played a lot sooner. But that was before MLB was loaded with foreign born players. It was also when many guys were washed up by the time they were in their late 20's. I think there's a reason things are done how they are now.

Guys are still washed up by their late 20's. The difference is most of those washed up guys are still pitching in the big leagues (Zambrano, Kazmir etc) because they have contracts.. Back in the day, they were gone having been replaced by the next 20 or 21 year old.

[Baldkin]

I know "back in the old days", guys came up and played a lot sooner. But that was before MLB was loaded with foreign born players. It was also when many guys were washed up by the time they were in their late 20's. I think there's a reason things are done how they are now.

No... this was before free agency, and cost cutting & saving measures that teams like the Brewers have to employ. For example: Lo Cain could've easily been the 4th/5th OF this year on the team, but it would've burned a year of service time.... so instead the Brewers went out and got Jim Edmonds.

[joepepsi]

September call ups don't count as an option year, though, right?