Braddock needs to be in 2011 rotation

[JohnBriggs12]

He's got starter stuff, has proven he can out major league hitters from both sides of the plate and he turns 23 next month. Isn't this a no-brainer? I keep reading that Brewers pitching situation is so desperate that they need to trade two top hitters. I just don't see it. Let's assume for sake of this discussion that Fielder is traded for Daniel Hudson or similar type major league ready starter. Anyone object if this is the rotation come opening day 2011?

 

Gallardo, Wolf, Hudson, Braddock, Narveson

 

Yes, they'd have to find a lefty bullpen specialist, but those guys are a lot easier to find than quality young starters. Braddock is wasted in that role.

[trwi7]

1. He's not going to be able to build up enough innings to be in the rotation next year.

 

2. Everytime he's in the rotation, he gets hurt.

 

And that rotation still wouldn't be very good.

[Funketown]

Hasn't it been said that the organization simply doesn't think Braddock could stay healthy as a starter? If he could be healthy, I think they'd go for it.

[brewmann04]

Is the Fo office Concerned about his Health as a Starter though?

[CheezWizHed]

Two issues I have with that:

1) How many innings could he pitch as a starter? 120?

2) He has never proven durable enough to be a starter. That isn't an excuse to not start him, but a red flag.

 

I'd like to see him relieve one more year before trying him as a starter. Give him a couple "clean" years injury wise first.

 

Yes, they'd have to find a lefty bullpen specialist...

 

Stetter?

 

edit- trwi7: that was just scary how similar our posts were...

[JohnBriggs12]

When Braddock was injured he was a 19-20 year old kid more than likely that just rared back and fired. Next year he'll be a 23 year old, fully physically developed more mature man, who has already faced the games best in pressure situations, and gotten them out using more than just one pitch.

 

I will grant you, just like all pitchers, that there's an injury risk. But the upside potential, given this team's pitching situation, should far outweigh the risk. Even the worst case scenario, that he blows out an elbow or a shoulder, what have you lost? If all you think he can ever be is a lefty bullpen guy, that's not much really.

 

As for this current generational thought that all pitchers have to slowly build up innings, all I can say is how's that strategy worked out for the Brewers? You wouldn't be asking him to do what skinny Billy Travers did at 23 back in 1976 and throw 240 innings (though if he gave the Brewers what Travers did in 76, you could buy playoff tickets now). You'd just like him to work 175-80 innings over 30 starts where his pitch count is carefully monitored.

[trwi7]

Who here really thinks he can only be a lefty bullpen guy? He could be a closer, which is great. Two cheap really good relievers in Axford and Braddock has some value to us as it hopefully prevents Melvin from going out and overpaying for bullpen arms.

 

Another problem is he would need to develop a changeup or some other third pitch. He's fastball/slider right now. That's fine for the bullpen but he's not going to get away with just two pitches as a starter unless he develops great control like Sheets which he likely won't. Either way, if he was moved back into a starting role, he wouldn't be doing it in Milwaukee next year.

 

I'd like to see it happen. I just don't see the Brewers doing it.

[And That]

As for this current generational thought that all pitchers have to slowly build up innings, all I can say is how's that strategy worked out for the Brewers? You wouldn't be asking him to do what skinny Billy Travers did at 23 back in 1976 and throw 240 innings (though if he gave the Brewers what Travers did in 76, you could buy playoff tickets now).

Travers' career was basically over by the time he was 28. That's why we don't do that anymore.

[JohnBriggs12]

As for this current generational thought that all pitchers have to slowly build up innings, all I can say is how's that strategy worked out for the Brewers? You wouldn't be asking him to do what skinny Billy Travers did at 23 back in 1976 and throw 240 innings (though if he gave the Brewers what Travers did in 76, you could buy playoff tickets now).

Travers' career was basically over by the time he was 28. That's why we don't do that anymore.

Yes it was, after 6 years and 65 wins he was of no further value to the Brewers or anyone else. That's sad for him, but the Brewers got plenty from him. Seeing that guys are eligible for FA after 6 years today and the Brewers can't seem to afford to keep the good ones, isn't that enough?

 

I hate to sound harsh, but players are replaceable parts. If they got 2-3 solid years out of Braddock and then he got hurt, by then any one of a number of guys toiling in Appleton or Brevard should be ready. If they get 4-5 solid years, that's gravy. All 6 pre FA years? Hold a parade.

 

As to twi7's point that he needs to develop a 3rd pitch. Yeah to reach another level, sure. But a lot of starters rely heavily on just 2 pitches. Capuano won 18 games with primarily a fastball and a changeup. Sheets got by on 2, but not because he had great control. He had control in the sense that he didn't walk guys, but his stuff was good enough he could throw the ball right down the middle and get outs. Braddock has a lively fastball, and a slider that's more of a slurve. There's about a 12 mph difference between his fastball and his slider, so it's not like he throws everything hard.

[monty57]

I keep reading that Brewers pitching situation is so desperate that they need to trade two top hitters.

 

I'd say it's more that the two top hitters will leave after next year, so we might as well get as much for them now as possible. I don't think we need (or that it's realistic to expect) to get two members of the 2011 rotation from the Hart / Fielder trades.

 

Anyone object if this is the rotation come opening day 2011?

 

Gallardo, Wolf, Hudson, Braddock, Narveson

 

I'd use Parra instead of Narveson, and Narveson could be your lefty specialist, since he has trouble against righties

 

1. He's not going to be able to build up enough innings to be in the rotation next year.

 

While I'm not disagreeing, how do other pitchers move from the 'pen to the rotation? The classic example is Johan Santana, but there have to have been many, many pitchers who have moved from the pen to the rotation early in their careers, so there has to be a way to do it.

 

2. Everytime he's in the rotation, he gets hurt.

 

Agreed that this is why he was moved to the 'pen, but there has been a lot of debate on which is harder on the arm... starting or relieving. Starters throw more innings, but are on a set schedule whereas relievers have a sporadic schedule which could be harder on the arm.

 

Braddock is wasted in that role.

 

No doubt Braddock would have much more value as a starter than as a setup man, and as long as Axford is getting batters out, I think Braddock will be a 7th-8th inning setup man (not a LOOGY). I'd rather see him as a starter in AAA first to make sure he could handle the load before I'd pencil him into the 2011 rotation. The comments about developing at least a "league average" third pitch make sense, and that's better done on a smaller stage.

 

I'd like to see it happen. I just don't see the Brewers doing it.

 

Sums it up pretty well. He's doing well in his current role and would have to take a step back to take three steps forward. Are they willing to have him take that step back, when they seem to be putting a lot of importance on winning games now? Really, if we'd just make the decision that we are out of it this year and games don't matter any more this season, Braddock might not be a bad person to send back down when Davis is off the DL so that he can try starting at the AAA level. If he pulls it off and continues his dominance, he could be a viable option for the 2011 rotation. Of course, that will never happen.

[Baldkin]

The Royals faced this same dilemma with Soria the past couple years. Many people clamoring for him to be made into a starter, and the organization simply not doing it.

I think, if the Brewers think there's any hope of Braddock handling the increased workload, it needs to be tried. A guy throwing 180 innings is so much more valuable than a guy throwing 60 (almost 3x as valuable, I'd wager!).

 

The big problem is, it's very tough for the organization to take the risk of breaking something when it's not broken. If that makes sense.

[trwi7]

1. He's not going to be able to build up enough innings to be in the rotation next year.

 

While I'm not disagreeing, how do other pitchers move from the 'pen to the rotation? The classic example is Johan Santana, but there have to have been many, many pitchers who have moved from the pen to the rotation early in their careers, so there has to be a way to do it.

Santana went from 40 innings, to 93, to 160, to 86 to 44, to 157, to 158 and then ranged from 219 to 234 innings. I don't know for sure but I don't think he was hurt in that time either. The most innings Braddock has thrown in his career is 71.1.

 

So Santana had 160 innings in a season as a 20 year old and only went down to 86 because he had to be on the major league team in Minnesota and he wasn't going to start. He then moved back to the minors and put in about 50 innings and then got 100 more in Minnesota, the next year they kept him around 160 innings again before letting him start for a full season.

 

So Santana had gone 160 innings before being in the bullpen, when they moved him back to starting they kept him around 160 innings for two years before letting him start all year and he had never been injured to my knowledge.

 

That's a pretty big difference from Braddock. He has 36 innings so far this year. If they plan on moving him back to a starter's role, I hope they build his innings up now. Maybe every five days he goes 3 innings for the rest of the season. That would give him 75 innings on the season. See if he can handle that. I'd also prefer he do that up here so we don't burn an option on him. Next year send him to the minors and see if he can get around 110 innings. He'd then have two options remaining. Then build him up to 140-150 innings, he'd have one option remaining and then 170-180 innings and being out of options.

 

That's really the only way I see it working and it probably won't work since I'm not sure he can handle that work load.

 

 

[bamberger]

I'd like to see him developed as a starter. He could possibly pitch in a Winter League to build up his arm. But this wouldn't necessarily be accomplished in one year. He probably needs another full year of health and more regular bullpen use.

[boinsd]

I agree that Braddock deserves the opportunity. Let's see what happens in the next 2 weeks with trades and where the team is at. I'm disappointed that Cappy is not getting the start Saturday- He deserves it!!

[monty57]

Thanks for the info on Santana. He probably wasn't the best example, just the only one I could think of. I do agree that Braddock would need to increase his workload if he wanted any chance of being a full-time starter next season.

 

Hasn't he already used an option this year, as he was in the minors and the majors? If so, and if the Brewers actually wanted him as a starter in the future, they could make him a AAA starter, and instead of 75 innings, maybe he gets closer to 100 and back into the routine of starting.

 

He is more valueable as a starter, and the Brewers have plenty of guys in the minors who are starting that would project better as MLB relievers, so they shouldn't be hurting for young relievers for quite some time. I doubt they'll convert him back to a starter, but it is an interesting predicament. And, yes Baldkin you're comment made perfect sense. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is probably the route the Brewers will take. Other popular euphemisms that would fit are "Better safe than sorry," or "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush."

[BREWCREW5]

Carlos Marmol used to be a starter too.

 

He is doing great in his current role, why change?

[PrinceEatMeat]

There's no way they move Braddock to the rotation for many of the above reasons stated. I will go with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" saying. He's doing great in the bullpen, so why not leave him there and not have to worry about all the problems that could arise if he joins the rotation?

[trwi7]

Hasn't he already used an option this year, as he was in the minors and the majors?

Nope. He was added to the 40 man in May and hasn't been sent to the minors since, so he still has all three.

[endaround]

Braddock isn't a reliever because the Brewers wanted him in Milwaukee really fast, he's a reliever because they don't think his arm can handle more than like 80 innings a season. Maybe if he stays healthy through age 25 he might get moved to the rotation but I doubt it.

[homer]

If they got 2-3 solid years out of Braddock and then he got hurt, by

then any one of a number of guys toiling in Appleton or Brevard should

be ready. If they get 4-5 solid years, that's gravy. All 6 pre FA

years? Hold a parade.

And what if they got 1? Big risk to take for a team that has to turn over it's roster every four years due to budget constraints.

[TooLiveBrew]

Hasn't he already used an option this year, as he was in the minors and the majors?

Nope. He was added to the 40 man in May and hasn't been sent to the minors since, so he still has all three.

I thought you don't "use up" an option year, though. If you're not sent down, I thought it didn't carry over. Options aren't like NFL challenge red flags. Options are option years, right?

[trwi7]

I thought you don't "use up" an option year, though. If you're not sent down, I thought it didn't carry over. Options aren't like NFL challenge red flags. Options are option years, right?

 

They definitely carry over. Braun and Gallardo still have all 3 options. Gomez still has 2. We sent Bush down to the minors in his 5th year in the majors and he still has 2 options.

[CheezWizHed]

If they got 2-3 solid years out of Braddock and then he got hurt, by then any one of a number of guys toiling in Appleton or Brevard should be ready.

 

When did they ever get 2-3 solid years out of Braddock? If I remember correctly, he was injured (more than a few weeks) every year he started. Not sure about 2006, though...

 

The most innings he as ever thrown was back in 2008: 71.1

Another interesting tid-bit: His only success as a starter was in 2007. When he had 9 starts at low A-ball. He didn't have good stats in 2006 at R+, nor in 2008 at A+.

 

Personally, I want to see Braddock to return to starting, but I want to see him healthy a few years in a row before trying that. But as others have stated, I doubt the Brewers try it, as he is succeeding in the pen right now and has closer potential.

 

I don't know who Billy Travers was, but who cares? Just because someone has done it in the past doesn't mean we should try it with Braddock. Talk about your small samples... I've heard of people surviving a fall from an airplane without their parachute, but it doesn't mean I'm going to do it. (what color do we highlight hyperboles with?)

 

BTW, Johan Santana was a SP for his entire career in the minors. As a rule 5 pick, he moved to the pen and then back to SP.

1999: 160 IP (MiLB)

2000: 86 IP

2001: 43.2

2002: 108.1 + 48.2(MiLB)

2003: 158.1

 

He has proved that his arm could handle starting. All of Braddock's evidence has shown other-wise.

[TooLiveBrew]

I thought you don't "use up" an option year, though. If you're not sent down, I thought it didn't carry over. Options aren't like NFL challenge red flags. Options are option years, right?

 

They definitely carry over. Braun and Gallardo still have all 3 options. Gomez still has 2. We sent Bush down to the minors in his 5th year in the majors and he still has 2 options.

Every time I think I understand options/options years, I'm reminded I don't. I just read through 5 or 6 different breakdowns of them, and still probably don't understand them well, or fully.

Question on Braun & Gallardo, though: Since they weren't with the Brewers on OD 2007, wouldn't they only have two option years left, not three? Or is it only considered using an option if the player is sent down from MLB, and not up to MLB?

[trwi7]

Question on Braun & Gallardo, though: Since they weren't with the Brewers on OD 2007, wouldn't they only have two option years left, not three? Or is it only considered using an option if the player is sent down from MLB, and not up to MLB?

I'm not 100% sure since I don't remember, but Braun was drafted in 2005 and called up in 2007. Players drafted at age 19 and older like Braun was need to be added to the 40 man roster after four minor league seasons, since he was only in his third minor league season, he didn't need to be on the 40 man roster until he was called up and he hasn't been sent down since he was called up. So my guess is he wasn't on the 40 man roster until he was called up.

 

Same goes for Gallardo. He was in his fourth minor league season but didn't need to be added until after his fifth year because he was 18 or younger on the June 5th preceding his first pro contract.

 

I remember Gallardo was called up when Capuano went on the DL, I don't remember the roster move when Braun was called up and I don't remember if they had open spots on the 40 man at the time to just add them.