Cox and Venters suspended [Latest: Venters suspension dropped]

[CheezWizHed]

At some point, I guess I don't know why a grown man has to throw a baseball at someone because they took too long to get around the bases.

 

FTJ, great summary and a great post.

 

If plunking was "part of the game", it would be in the rule books on how to do it (as there are rules on hard slides into a base).

[Fatter than Joey]

It's also in the pitchers right to try and back a player off if he's trying to garner an unfair advantage by crowding the plate. I would categorize that as part of the game. I'm a little mixed on the body armour too...it could give the hitter an unfair advantage.

 

I agree with this 100%.

[RockCoCougars]

I respectfully disagree. Once again, if this was an isolated incident, maybe I'd be a little less bloodthirsty towards Atlanta. When Braun was plunked by Hanson, a few months back, he was right at the top of the league batting leaders. He takes one on the elbow from Hanson (who is leading the league in hit batsmen by the way), and has done virtually nothing since - despite showing some signs of life the past week or so. This also coincides with a tailspin that the team in general took at about the same time. Now they are purposely going after Fielder? A complete joke. Retaliation is warranted and necessary, you don't go whining to the league like Macha did- a sissy move in my view. The guy shows absolutely no fire. The kinder, gentler, among us here may disagree, but you have to protect your players. In my opinion, it is part of the game, and the pitchers should know better.

 

Then you have a guy like Parra who appears like he's scared to pitch inside for fear of hitting someone. The Grand Slam by McCann was supposed to be an inside pitch, unfortunately Manny left the ball right over the plate. After McCann showboated and took a slow run around the bases, the first pitch to him on his next at bat should have been under his chin if not in his back. Guys like Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale would have done this even without the beanball antics of the Braves and the showboating.

 

I'm not going to look up the stats, but it seems that the Brewers are right near the league league in hit batsmen every year. I'm tired of watching injuries like Braun's cost the team. I remember back in 2000 (I think) the team was making a little run for the Wild Card, then Burnitz got plunked, broke his hand, and the tailspin was on.

 

What the Braves did the past weekend was complete Bush League and they should have been called out for it. Perhaps a brawl would have given these guys a little spark. Instead, Macha goes and whines to the league. I could not see someone like Yost or Garner doing that, but then again, those guys actually had some passion for their job.

[bigredrobbo]

I'm kind of in two minds about body armor. On the one hand you've got Barry Bonds, looking like Robocop. On the other hand, you've got Prince with an elbow pad that allows him to still have a career should a vindictive manager decide to authorize one of his goons to take him out for having the gall to hit the homers that the Brewers pay him to!

[burnzy24]

RockCoCougars wrote:

Perhaps a brawl would have given these guys a little spark. Instead, Macha goes and whines to the league. I could not see someone like Yost or Garner doing that, but then again, those guys actually had some passion for their job.

So in order to have a passion for your job you need to incite a brawl or go headhunting? If Macha didn't have a passion for his job he could simply retire, I'm sure he has made enough money in his career that he doesnt need to manage the Brewers. I don't see how just because he doesn't get thrown out arguing calls that he has no passion for his job. That is just not his style and the Brewers knew this when they hired him. I am sure Macha works his butt off and is one of the first ones there in the morning and one of the last ones to leave at night. If he wasn't putting and effort into his job I don't see any reason why Mark A wouldn't just fire him. I personally hate it when managers like Pinella go out and make a spectacle of themselves over every call that doesn't go their way.

Also, we are right on the edge of contending or selling, yet we should intentionally get into a brawl where players could get suspended or even hurt so we can "give the guys a spark:?" The last thing we need is for Fielder or Hart to break some bone in a fight and kill their value to this team this year, whether it be on the field or in a trade.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Maybe I'd be a little less bloodthirsty towards Atlanta.

 

I have a new sport suggestion for you -- it's called "Thunderdome".

 

This also coincides with a tailspin that the team in general took at about the same time.

 

I don't think Tommy Hanson has the power to tailspin the Brewers with one HBP. I don't doubt that Braun was affected by getting plunked -- I am not onboard with assuming that is the only reason for Braun's struggles though.

 

In my opinion, it is part of the game, and the pitchers should know better.

 

I will ask you the question I asked above. "As a coach, at what point do I instruct my boys to intentionally throw at their opponents?"

 

Guys like Bob Gibson and Don Drysdale

 

Guys like Gibson and Drysdale were great pitchers, and didn't throw a lot of Manny Parra meatballs. They were intimidating, but they were also incredible pitchers.

 

Perhaps a brawl would have given these guys a little spark.

 

The thing I worry about, is that the Brewers would run out there, and then proceed to get their collective asses kicked. I'd find that depressing.

[Thurston Fluff]

Body armor itself isn't a problem. It's when guys wear it so they can get a free base that bothers me. Biggio used to stick his armored elbow out as he "attempted" to get out of the way. Then he'd take the free base without having earned it. I think the best way to get rid of and easy base would be to make any pitch that hit body armor a ball not a free base. Then you'd only see it for protection not a substitute for offense.

 

Perhaps a brawl would have given these guys a little spark. Instead, Macha goes and whines to the league. I could not see someone like Yost or Garner doing that, but then again, those guys actually had some passion for their job.

 

While loved Yost his fire wasn't the reason for it. I don't think passion=get in your face and beat people up. Passion or fire, what every you want to call it, runs as deeply in the quiet ones as it does the fire and brimstone types. Espeically in a game in which it is widely acknowledged that not getting too high or too low is a key to long term success.

As far as Macha being some sort of wimp for not beaning their guy in retaliation how brave is LaRussa or Cox to sit in the bugout and order his guys to hit someone? Not very brave at all. I'm sure Macha's fine with the label as long as the end result is best for his team and worst for the Braves.

As it stands their team plays without one of their top lefty setup guys for four games and the manager for one and they both pay a fine. The Brewers OTH have no negative fallout to deal with. If he had ordered a plunking then we'd have a guy sitting out as well or their punishment would have been less. I think if you'd ask their team which penalty they would prefer to pay they'd all say hit one of ours and be done with it. Macha made them pay more than that. So to me he's done more to hurt the Braves than an old school manager would have. props to him for understanding how to really hit someone where it counts.

[Diggr14]

1. A grown man shouldn't be writing an e-mail telling on another grown man for something that happens in a game.

 

2. If you feel they are hitting your guys on purpose and you want it to stop. Hit their biggest/baddest player.... or at least buzz the tower and make him dust himself off. There is a reason why we get hit alot (reputation of being young and cocky / unwillingness to back it up).

 

3. Next year Tommy Hanson pitches against the Brewers. Jeremy Jeffress should make his debut and uncork a 100mph rib job onto Hanson. He will think five times before pulling that stunt against the Brewers again. Ryan Braun was not right for 2 months after that HBP. It has gone a long way to helping screw our season over.

 

4. Just fire Macha, put Sveum in there. This wont be an issue anymore.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

I agree with you guys on the body armour. I tried to contrast what Rickie & Prince have as "a lesser degree" than Bonds. Prince & Rickie wear pads, Bonds had enough body armour to survive a Schwarzennegger movie. Biggio is a great example too. It always seemed to me they were using the armour as an offensive weapon not protection.

[CheezWizHed]

A grown man shouldn't be writing an e-mail telling on another grown man for something that happens in a game.

 

He shouldn't have to have to complain. It should have been obvious and handled automatically by the league.

 

Jeremy Jeffress should make his debut and uncork a 100mph rib job onto Hanson.

 

You guys need to study the Hatfield and McCoys. Trying to injure their player because they hurt ours? Kind of reminds me of the late '80s in the NFL when defensive players were intentionally trying to hit the offensive player as hard as possible (did Chuck Cecil always have blood on his nose?). Trying to knock someone out of the game. The NFL finally starting cracking down and people went back to focusing on football again.

 

The game is baseball. Pitching inside is part of baseball. Accidental HBP are part of baseball. Intentional beaning and throwing behind players is immature. Good way to hurt someone.

[CheezWizHed]

I need to ask another question the is central to this discussion:

 

Why is it wrong to celebrate a home run?

 

People complain about the NFL (no fun league) because they crack down on touchdown celebrations. Now, I appreciate Barry Sanders and the "act like you've been there before"- hand the ball to the ref celebration. And I'm not crazy about Ocho-Cinco planned elaborate celebrations. But impromtu emotional celebrations are great! You just scored; your supposed to be happy! Emotion drives momentum!

 

I've heard that its ok to bean someone when:

- Plan a celebration - bowling pins, pull out shirt-tails

- He watches the HR clear the fence

- He takes "too long" to run around the bases

- He just hits a home run - nothing more needed than that. Just bean him the next time up. Play the chin music...

 

Sorry, it just doesn't make sense to me...

[DuWayne Steurer]

The whole "Bob Gibson knocked you down" argument gets old.

 

http://www.baseball-refer...layers/g/gibsobo01.shtml

 

Gibson's career high in HBP was 13. He hit 10 batters in a season 4 times. I've even heard people say Gibson hit every batter that ever hit a homerun off of him (not in this thread mind you)......but 257 career HR does not = 102 career hit batters. By this measurement, Jamey Wright (136 career hit batters) was much more passionate about the game than Bob Gibson.

 

McCann *needed* to get a high hard one in the shoulder blades for running slowly around the bases? That's nothing short of immature.

 

Showboating + violence = problem solved.

 

Violence + violence = problem solved.

 

Got it. I'll file that away for future reference.

[RockCoCougars]

McCann *needed* to get a high hard one in the shoulder blades for running slowly around the bases? That's nothing short of immature.

 

Showboating + violence = problem solved.

 

Violence + violence = problem solved.

 

Got it. I'll file that away for future reference.

Again, this wouldn't be an issue if the Braves weren't throwing at the head of Prince just weeks after injuring Braun. We can agree to disagree, but if I'm Prince, I want my pitchers and my managers to protect me, otherwise, what's going to stop the rest of the league from taking liberties? Instead, Macha takes the 'high road', goes to the league, and a reliever gets suspended for 4 days- big deal.

 

As someone else said, a Jeffress fastball into Hanson's ribs would make him think twice about throwing at Brewer hitters.

 

By the way, Gibson didn't always hit guys. A little mid-90's chin music can make quite a statement.

[Baldkin]

You really think anyone would ever throw at Prince again if he charged the mound and bowled over a pitcher the way he has a catcher on more than one occasion?

Why can't he protect himself? Why does he need Manny Parra to do it for him?

 

Oh yeah, because that's not "How it works in baseball", the pitchers get suspended and fined.... not the hitters.

[RockCoCougars]

You really think anyone would ever throw at Prince again if he charged the mound and bowled over a pitcher the way he has a catcher on more than one occasion?

Why can't he protect himself? Why does he need Manny Parra to do it for him?

.

Point taken, but that would have been tough for him to do on Saturday when the ump was basically bearhugging him.

[TooLiveBrew]

As someone else said, a Jeffress fastball into Hanson's ribs would make him think twice about throwing at Brewer hitters.

 

Before it was just wild speculation, but honestly now it's a little annoying that you keep saying the Braun beaning was intentional. There is literally nothing to back that claim up. Guys get hit, and sometimes they get hurt. Just because it was one of your favorite players doesn't give you a free pass to assume it was on purpose.

[logan82]

At what age or point do you tell your son to throw at a batter? -- Little League? Babe Ruth? High School?

 

Bush League.

[RockCoCougars]

As someone else said, a Jeffress fastball into Hanson's ribs would make him think twice about throwing at Brewer hitters.

 

Before it was just wild speculation, but honestly now it's a little annoying that you keep saying the Braun beaning was intentional. There is literally nothing to back that claim up. Guys get hit, and sometimes they get hurt. Just because it was one of your favorite players doesn't give you a free pass to assume it was on purpose.

Braun absolutely owned Hanson last year, hitting 3 dongs of him. Combining that with the fact that Hanson walked just one guy in eight innings that day makes this theory a little more plausible than 'wild speculation' in my view. The Braves' Bush League antics this past weekend only furthered that theory for me. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

[logan82]

This also coincides with a tailspin that the team in general took at about the same time.

 

This whole season has been a tailspin or did you mean we happened to be playing some really good teams just after the Braves the first time and lost a couple close games to the Pirates.

[danzig6767]

RoCoBrewfan wrote:

 

Violence + violence = problem solved.

I don't like at all the amount of hitting batters on purpose that goes

on in baseball, especially how some managers seem to view almost any

hit batter situation as intentional that needs retaliation.

 

That

said, i do wonder if Macha being so less inclined to instruct

retaliation that does it lead to guys like Prince getting hit more

often as was the case the other night?

 

Take a manager like

LaRussa. He seems to have his pitchers throw at the other team whenever

he feels someone hit one of his guys wrongly or for his belief of

showboating. It bothers me sometimes. That said, if a pitcher on another team threw at say Pujols or

Holliday in the manner they threw at Prince in Atlanta, that other team would know

that it's almost 100 percent certain that LaRussa would send in a

relief pitcher to drill one of the better hitters on the other team hard.

That might make the other team think twice about even throwing at one

of the Cardinals better hitters in the first place because it then will be putting one of

that team's better players at risk when they next stepped into the

batters box.

 

As i said before, i'm no fan at all of this

intentionally throwing at hitters crap, but i can see where some of

these managers that are more known to consistently retaliate would end

up preventing some of these intentional beanings of his players simply

because the other manager would have to worry that one of his own

hitters very likely would end up getting hit in return and 90mph

fastballs can easily injure any batter who gets hit.

[DuWayne Steurer]

As i said before, i'm no fan at all of this

intentionally throwing at hitters crap, but i can see where some of

these managers that are more known to consistently retaliate would end

up preventing some of these intentional beanings of his players simply

because the other manager would have to worry that one of his own

hitters very likely would end up getting hit in return and 90mph

fastballs can easily injure any batter who gets hit.

If this were true, wouldn't *intentional* beanings no longer happen? Players have been hit since baseball started. Teams have retaliated since baseball has been played. Players *still* get hit intentionally. Retaliation has never solved the problem that I can see.

[Thurston Fluff]

I want my pitchers and my managers to protect me, otherwise, what's going to stop the rest of the league from taking liberties? Instead, Macha takes the 'high road', goes to the league, and a reliever gets suspended for 4 days- big deal.

 

I want my manager to keep my pitchers available for all the games not be out for no reason for the better part of a week. What will stop the league from taking liberties with our hitters is suspensions and fines. That actually hurts for days not minutes. Yes to players missing four game checks/action is a big deal. Why would they appeal if it wasn't?

 

 

By the way, Gibson didn't always hit guys. A little mid-90's chin music can make quite a statement.

 

You will find far more players have a problem with pitchers who throw chin music than ones who hit them in the middle of the back. No hitter or team ever wants anything near the head intentionally. I agree with them. Risking giving someone a serious head injury just to send a message is not only stupid but should lead to a long suspension and huge fine. Not going high is one of those unwritten rules that most old school managers follow closer than hitting their guy if they hit yours.

 

Take a manager like LaRussa. He seems to have his pitchers throw at the other team whenever he feels someone hit one of his guys wrongly or for his belief of showboating.

 

He's the perfect example of why I wish more people would go Macha's way and let the league handle it. Dude finds reasons in every game that requires retaliation. His teams get in fights all the time with the virtually every team. Someone takes an extra 10 seconds to round the bases hit the next guy. Someone fist pumps a big HR someone else gets hit tomorrow. Never mind his players are as bad as all the others. If his players get hit for the same reason he orders hits he needs to retaliate because they plunked his guy intentionally. LaRussa is the problem not the answer. Self policing is not the answer. Unless the question is what is the definition of vigilantism.

[TooLiveBrew]

The Braves' Bush League antics this past weekend only furthered that theory for me. Where there's smoke, there's fire.

Case closed!

[danzig6767]

 

Take a manager like LaRussa. He seems to have his pitchers throw at the other team whenever he feels someone hit one of his guys wrongly or for his belief of showboating.

 

He's the perfect example of why I wish more people would go Macha's way and let the league handle it. Dude finds reasons in every game that requires retaliation. His teams get in fights all the time with the virtually every team. Someone takes an extra 10 seconds to round the bases hit the next guy. Someone fist pumps a big HR someone else gets hit tomorrow. Never mind his players are as bad as all the others. If his players get hit for the same reason he orders hits he needs to retaliate because they plunked his guy intentionally. LaRussa is the problem not the answer. Self policing is not the answer. Unless the question is what is the definition of vigilantism.

So long as MLB does a better job at policing this stuff, then i agree with you. If they won't though and i'm a guy like Prince or Braun, i'd rather have a manager that i know will retaliate for intentional beanings like happened in Atlanta so opposing teams think twice before throwing at me.

[TooLiveBrew]

But does it actually make teams think twice, or just let them know you're easy to rile up? There has to be a balance imo, and Macha's approach appears to be as close to 'never hit a batter on purpose' as it gets.

 

A 4-game suspension isn't really that big-time a punishment. I'd like to see far more severe suspensions for cases as obvious as Venters's.