Lake Michigan question

[paul253]

I live in Milwaukee and the lake is disgusting down by here. It stinks from the constant sewage dumping and I will not go swimming at the beaches here. My question is this. Does anyone know about how far north you need to go before you can swim in the lake without smelling like sewage after you get out? Is something like Port Washington far enough, or do you have to go even further?

[NeedMoreFans]

The lake smells due to algae. With all of the muscles (zebra and quagga) in the lake filtering the water, algae grows much thicker and deeper because sun penetrates deeper into the water. It dies or detaches from the bottom, floats to the surface and decomposes, which creates the terrible smell.

 

That being said...I grew up in Port Washington, and it all depended on the year. There were some summers where you couldn't be anywhere near the lake (or you had to be out far enough from shore on the breakwater) due to the smell. However, quite often the beach was fine, but there were a lot of weeds. (The beach is North of downtown Port, just past the water treatment plant...below Upper Lake Park). When we wanted a great beach day, we always went up to either Harrington Beach or Kohler-Andre State Parks.

[theavrock]

Sewage dumping is heavily over blown by the MKE media. More sewage ended up in Lake Michigan before the deep tunnel was invented. Milwaukee's water treatment facilities are some of the best in the nation due to the overhaul in everything after the crypto outbreak. I know it stinks and bad. I was home and on the lake but as NMF said its because of algae and not sewage. I never had any qualms about swimming in the lake.

[owbc]

Yeah, the deep tunnel is about as good of a system as you can get. The real pollutant is the excessive phosphorous from poor farming practices/policy. The phosphorous ban in lawn fertilizer and detergent should help a little bit.

[jerichoholicninja]

Around Two Rivers the Lake is pretty clean and the beaches are groomed frequently.

[trwi7]

Around Two Rivers the Lake is pretty clean and the beaches are groomed frequently.

Agreed. Specifically Neshotah Park. It's a nice park for kids and you can just take the path right to a pretty big beach that usually isn't terribly crowded.

 

[paul253]

Sewage dumping is heavily over blown by the MKE media.

 

Maybe so, but a billion gallons of raw sewage is a billion gallons. I don't know if it over blown. All they do is report how many gallons are dumped every time it rains.

 

Now this question is a bit off topic a bit, and it may show how ignorant I am regarding the whole system. But you have the deep tunnel, which holds something like 438 million gallons. Instead of adding more storage capacity in the deep tunnel, why can't they double the treatment facilities so that they can clean it faster?

[GAME05]

but isn't the huge algae growth due in part to all the nitrogen in the water from the sewage and fertilizer runoff?

[NeedMoreFans]

but isn't the huge algae growth due in part to all the nitrogen in the water from the sewage and fertilizer runoff?

On inland lakes, yes. The lakes around Madison are terrible, and it is mostly due to runoff from fertilizer. In Lake Michigan, I'm sure they make the problem worse, but the algae growth is mainly from the water being so much clearer and light penetrating deeper to allow for more algae to grow.

[greeg35]

Going to Harrington Beach today. I'll give a water temp/stench/dead fish report.

[thebruce44]

Sewage dumping is heavily over blown by the MKE media.

 

Maybe so, but a billion gallons of raw sewage is a billion gallons. I don't know if it over blown. All they do is report how many gallons are dumped every time it rains.

 

Now this question is a bit off topic a bit, and it may show how ignorant I am regarding the whole system. But you have the deep tunnel, which holds something like 438 million gallons. Instead of adding more storage capacity in the deep tunnel, why can't they double the treatment facilities so that they can clean it faster?

Its my understanding that MKE is actually very far ahead of the curve in terms of wastewater dumping into the lake. Here is a chart from the MMSD showing how well the Deep Tunnel is working:

 

http://v3.mmsd.com/AssetsClient/Images/Wastewater%20Sect/OverflowChartLG.jpg

 

Sure it would be nice to have those numbers be zero, but thats pretty unrealistic due to cost. Here is what they are doing to combat future overflows (which does include better treatment facilities):

 

http://v3.mmsd.com/Overflowreductionplan.aspx#

[honuswagner21]

Now this question is a bit off topic a bit, and it may show how ignorant I am regarding the whole system. But you have the deep tunnel, which holds something like 438 million gallons. Instead of adding more storage capacity in the deep tunnel, why can't they double the treatment facilities so that they can clean it faster?

I believe that this very question popped up back in June, 2008 when we had serious flooding and basement backups in the Milwaukee area. IIRC, MMSD simply cannot build a system with the resources available that would prevent all sewage blending and dumping into rivers. The cost estimates given were in the several billions of $'s. I believe that MMSD has two treatment plants but could be mistaken. Not sure what the estimate is to build one but you still have to have capacity to get all the wastewater there.

[homer]

I thought a big part of the problem is that Milwaukee has a combined rain and sewage system. So all the rain water gets mixed with all the waste water. The costs to separate the two is astronomical not to mention it would be a giant headache for everyone. So the alternative was the deep tunnel project which isn't quite big enough to handle torrential rainstorms.

[RobertR]

I thought a big part of the problem is that Milwaukee has a combined rain and sewage system. So all the rain water gets mixed with all the waste water. The costs to separate the two is astronomical not to mention it would be a giant headache for everyone. So the alternative was the deep tunnel project which isn't quite big enough to handle torrential rainstorms.

A large contributing factor is that many of the sanitary sewer systems leak/have illegal stormwater connections as well. So when it rains, MMSD has to deal not only with the combined sewers, but large inflows of rainwater where there shouldn't be any additional loading. There's probably a lot to be gained by fixing joint seals on existing sanitary systems.

 

Robert

 

[brucrustu]

A large contributing factor is that many of the sanitary sewer systems leak/have illegal stormwater connections as well. So when it rains, MMSD has to deal not only with the combined sewers, but large inflows of rainwater where there shouldn't be any additional loading. There's probably a lot to be gained by fixing joint seals on existing sanitary systems.

My understanding is that in milwaukee these 2 are 1. no illegal connections, the stormwater is intended to go into the sanitary sewer. That is what makes the deep tunnel a necessity and also why mmsd has to to some dumping. They dump the combined sewage and rain water. This sewage dumping at least somewhat contributes to milwaukee area beaches being closed for high e. coli. levels.

 

Separating the 2 sewers now would be a big ugly project.

[RobertR]

A large contributing factor is that many of the sanitary sewer systems leak/have illegal stormwater connections as well. So when it rains, MMSD has to deal not only with the combined sewers, but large inflows of rainwater where there shouldn't be any additional loading. There's probably a lot to be gained by fixing joint seals on existing sanitary systems.

My understanding is that in milwaukee these 2 are 1. no illegal connections, the stormwater is intended to go into the sanitary sewer. That is what makes the deep tunnel a necessity and also why mmsd has to to some dumping. They dump the combined sewage and rain water. This sewage dumping at least somewhat contributes to milwaukee area beaches being closed for high e. coli. levels.

 

Separating the 2 sewers now would be a big ugly project.

No, there are two areas. There's the combined sewer area, about 5% of the total area, and there are areas of separate sanitary and storm sewers that were built later. You can see the map at http://v3.mmsd.com/AboutUs.aspx

 

Obviously, the combined sewers are the biggest problem. But there are enough leaking sewers and illegal hookups in the other 95% of the area that it's probably where MMSD will get the most bang for their buck. Fix things like roots penetrating the sewers, cracked manholes, bad seals, etc. It's relatively simple to install some flow monitors and see if you can determine where the worst sources of infiltration are.

 

I do agree that the idea of separating the combined and sanitary sewers would be prohibitively expensive. You'd have to tear up every street and reroute and separate every household connection. Considering how many utilities are buried now, I'm not even sure if it's really possible to find a route through that maze for two sewers. While the deep tunnels need specialized equipment, they're relatively easy to design as they're below all the rest of the utilities, you don't have to tear up streets, you don't have to figure out every connection, etc. Build a couple of drop shafts with gates, start your tunneling machine, and remove your tunneling machine at the other end. Now, it's more complicated than I make it sound for actual engineering and construction, but that's the basic concept.

 

Obviously there are some issues with the Deep Tunnels, but, in general, I think they'd still be chosen if we had to do it all over again. Part of it is also how you define success vs. failure. Pretty much every time it rained and snow melted in the Spring you'd have an overflow. Something like 50 to 80 times a year. I think the average now is something like 2.5 times. Now, obviously, we'd all like it to be zero, and I expect with the projects that MMSD has coming on line and some cooperative weather we'll see some years with zero overflows in the near future.

 

And, if you live in the combined sewer area, there certainly are options to help out. I'd recommend MMSD's rain barrel and rain garden programs. The use of porous pavement so that there's more infiltration in parking lots, sidewalkes, etc. is also a sound one that I expect that we'll hear more about in the coming years.

 

Robert

[thebruce44]

The use of porous pavement so that there's more infiltration in parking lots, sidewalkes, etc. is also a sound one that I expect that we'll hear more about in the coming years.

This is going to be huge in the coming years in my opinion. Chicago has already started converting a lot of their alleys to permeable pavers. It really does help a lot.

In terms of leaking sewers, yea it is going to be a big issue in any older city. If you check out the link I provided above, you can actually see an image from when they were televising some sewers. This really is the best way to find the leaks, but it is a slow process of course. In my opinion, the deep tunnel is the best way to deal with these issues. Chicago did the same thing. While it may seem like we dump a lot of crap into Lake Michigan, we really are doing a tremendous job dealing with this issue both in Chicago and Milwaukee. Compared to a couple of decades ago, the progress has been amazing.

[Flood Pants]

I lived on Cambrige ave on the east side a few months ago, and they had the storm sewer opened up for repairs and upgrades. They've spent months on just that one street. It's a huge task. I believe the original sewer is made of wood and over 100 years old. It will take a ton of time and money to upgrade all of the infrastructure, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

And yes, the smell is primarily due to algea bloom and die-off because of the invasive Zebra and Quagga mussels. And I believe ecoli content is primarily due to gull scat, though we do see a major influx after heavy rains (last week for example). You can always check beach water quality at the following web site:

http://www.wibeaches.us/a...030582::NO::P1_BEACH:%25

 

Looks like Milwaukee County is currently safe for swimming. It seems that the smell is better the further you get away from the harbor. But this is just based on my own observation. For example, Grant Park and Doctors Park are much better than Bradford Beach. Perhaps this is because it is further from the runoff from the rivers or there's less boat traffic. But I love Grant Park. It's probably my favorite beach in the county and I would recommend it for swimming.

 

 

[owbc]

Another huge sewer overflow is ongoing. This might be one of the biggest ones ever (since the deep tunnel).

[paul253]

Unfortunately there's nobody to blame for this. I've never seen a storm line like this one. Just a constant line, hundreds of miles long. I heard Shorewood has already got 7 inches of rain.

[bork]

Now this question is a bit off topic a bit, and it may show how ignorant I am regarding the whole system. But you have the deep tunnel, which holds something like 438 million gallons. Instead of adding more storage capacity in the deep tunnel, why can't they double the treatment facilities so that they can clean it faster?

I believe that this very question popped up back in June, 2008 when we had serious flooding and basement backups in the Milwaukee area. IIRC, MMSD simply cannot build a system with the resources available that would prevent all sewage blending and dumping into rivers. The cost estimates given were in the several billions of $'s. I believe that MMSD has two treatment plants but could be mistaken. Not sure what the estimate is to build one but you still have to have capacity to get all the wastewater there.

 

Yes, there is Jones Island and Southshore in Oak Creek. I've worked at both and certainly not a place I like to be after a rain storm.

 

Part of the current problem is that they cannot pump water out of the deep tunnels fast enough to even partially treat it. So they are upgrading the 3 large pumps that pump water from the deep tunnels to Jones Island. I believe they are working on one of them now, since it is supposed to be past the rainy season. So I think that is part of the reason why it is taking longer to empty the deep tunnels. After all 3 are upgraded in the next 2 or 3 years, I think they will have the ability to pump 50% more water out of the deep tunnels.

[RobertR]

Yeah, I've never seen a storm like yesterday's either. Just one of those things that's beyond anyone's expectations for engineering.

 

Lucky for the Brewers they were out of town. The roof doesn't do you a whole lot of good when there's flooding.

 

Going back, theBruce44 and I are in agreement that porous pavement and pavers for runoff reduction is probably going to be the next big thing for Milwaukee. I doubt even they would have helped yesterday, but I certainly could see them making a difference in a normal year. The City of Milwaukee redoing it's alleys with porous pavement certainly could make a difference for the total amount of runoff. Especially when you consider how many acres of alleys, parking lots, etc. there are. I expect we'll be hearing more about Green Roofs too shortly.

 

Robert

[thebruce44]

Yeah, I've never seen a storm like yesterday's either. Just one of those things that's beyond anyone's expectations for engineering.

To give you guys an idea of the elements that go into stormwater design, you build storm sewers that are capable of handling the 10 year storm (not a storm that happens once every 10 years but a storm that has a 1/10 statistical probability of happening in a given year). From there you grade a parking lot/roadway/field so that there are overflows for anything above the 10 year. These all flow to basins (or in a city directly into the city system) that are designed to hold the 100 year storm (1/100th of a chance of happening). Parking lots and roadways are supposed to be designed so that flooding only goes up to 9 inches deep and is well below any structure's elevation. On ground, you can let ponding depths go to 1.5 feet.

 

Your basins are suposed fill and release at a designed rate, but when the storm reaches the 100 year level, the basins fail and overtop a 100 year overflow. This is something some people never see in their lifetime. You always design for it, but figure its not going to happen.

 

Its too early to tell, but I think this last storm may have actually exceeded the 100 year level. Pretty crazy. I saw an article where a resident was understandably upset that his taxes weren't going towards a design that could handle something like this. People have to understand that a storm like this one just doesn't happen enough to design for it. You have to pick a point where going beyond to increasing factors of safety just isn't worth it cost wise. This is that point, and unfortunately people are going to have to deal with systems failing.

[Patrick425]

Regarding the original post of swimming in the lake. I have lived in the Milwaukee area for my entire life (44 years) and I'm not sure if I have ever gone swimming in the lake down here (not because I'm afraid of the water conditions. it's just something I have never done). However, my family and I go up to Door County almost every year and one of the things we enjoy doing is going to the beach at Whitefish Dunes State Park and going swimming. There has been a couple of times were we have done this and gotten a thick layer of green algae (I think that's what it is?) that attaches itself to the netting of our swim suites. Not sure if it's harmful at all, but it's pretty disgusting.

[temke]

a little dated, but some info on Lake Michigan algae, technically known as cladaphora

 

http://www.legis.state.wi...s/Beaches/cladaphora.htm

 

the removal of the cladaphora on a regular basis from Bradford Beach is what has virtually eliminated the stink from that part of the beach. go just a little north up the hill and the smell is still there in areas where it is not removed.

 

Bradfrod Beach received national recognition last year as a "Blue Wave" beach, which is kind of a big deal

 

http://www.wisn.com/news/19760204/detail.html

 

also, when thinking about the dumping, approximately 2,000,000,000 gallons were dumped into an estimated 1,300,000,000,000,000 gallon body of water. according to the state beach monitoring website, the e coli levels at bradford beach were actually below the EPA standards on Monday.

 

http://wibeaches.us/apex/...162592649320362::NO:RP::