is anyone concerned about Gamel?

[Hammer]

Unless Gamel is sent somewhere as part of a Fielder trade I cannot imagine that he would not be a starter somewhere for the Crew next season. Casey has been a nice surprise but I don't think that he has locked 3rd down for good...

[uwisfan]

Checking recent box scores, it looks like he's back to playing 3B primarily.

I thought he was moved for defensive reasons to RF/1B.. Why move him back? Considering that McGehee is doing very well at 3B it makes no sense. Gamel is blocked at 3B.

 

I don't know if I can agree with the bolded part.

here we go again. Currently, McGehee is 6th in all of MLB 3rd basemen in OPS, after finishing 7th last year. I love me some Gamel, but McGehee is a proven, cheap commodity that you dont want to devalue.

[wibadgers23]

Yeah, McGehee isn't going anywhere and will be the starting 3b next year unless he's traded. If he's not traded, then it's Prince who will need to go if Gamel has any kind of future with the Brewers.

[pete]

I suppose its a debate that's being waged elsewhere, but my impression is that Macha is very different than Yost who would project a guy into a position for whatever reason and leave him there when there are better choices for very long periods of time. I'd like to see open competition for 3B next year. It could be that Macha is the best opportunity for that to happen. I know most disagree with that.

 

But putting that aside, I don't recall many recent errors by Gamel. Are there game logs somewhere that give error results, hopefully including whether they are throwing or fielding? Maybe they're there, but I looked at Fangraphs, B-R, Firstinng and the Milb sites. If they're not available, anyone want to join in, maybe take a week or a month and go through the recaps/boxscores and put it together?

[thebruce44]

uwisfan[/b]]

thebruce44[/b]]

PrinceFielderx1[/b]]I thought he was moved for defensive reasons to RF/1B.. Why move him back? Considering that McGehee is doing very well at 3B it makes no sense. Gamel is blocked at 3B.

 

I don't know if I can agree with the bolded part.

here we go again. Currently, McGehee is 6th in all of MLB 3rd basemen in OPS, after finishing 7th last year. I love me some Gamel, but McGehee is a proven, cheap commodity that you dont want to devalue.

 

Here we go again with people overvaluing McGehee. A 2 week hot streak and he is back to being in barely in the top 10 when you factor in his defense. 2 weeks ago he was around average with no upside. Where will he finish the season? Hard to say, but we have a cheaper player who I think will play better defense for a longer amount of team control vs a very replaceable player with some value. Thats the type of player you love to trade to fill a hole elsewhere.

 

If you think Gamel is "blocked" at 3B you are kidding yourself. You have no idea how this is all going to work out.

[homer]

Gamel is no cinch to replace McGehee's defense. While still not good, he's vastly improved from last year. Obviously he doesn't have good range but Escobar does which mitigates that to a degree. Even if he slumps to .800 OPS he'd still be top ten amongst all third basemen in baseball.

 

I don't think Gamel is necessarily "blocked" by any means but I'd think long and hard before trading McGehee to give Gamel a shot at a position he may be moved from in a year or two anyway.

 

I guess I'd rather trade Prince and either move Gamel to 1st or move Hart to 1st and send Gamel to the outfield. If Weeks decides to bolt for free agency, having McGehee around to play second wouldn't be the worst problem in the world to have.

[PrinceFielderx1]

thebruce44

 

Look at Mcgehee 2010 stats for the whole season. Look at what he did last season. Many people wondered going into this season if McGehee was for real, and now it looks like he is. The Brewers can't justify giving Gamel priority over McGehee at 3B anymore. They are both cheap options, but McGehee is proven and Gamel isn't.

[TooLiveBrew]

Are there game logs somewhere that give error results, hopefully including whether they are throwing or fielding?

 

The MiLB.com box scores discern btw. throwing/fielding errors. In the Sounds' past 32 games, Gamel has made 5 errors, 4 of them fielding. One of the errors came at 1B, the other four were at 3B -- including his most recent throwing error on Jul. 23d.

[thebruce44]

PrinceFielderx1[/b]]thebruce44

 

Look at Mcgehee 2010 stats for the whole season. Look at what he did last season. Many people wondered going into this season if McGehee was for real, and now it looks like he is. The Brewers can't justify giving Gamel priority over McGehee at 3B anymore. They are both cheap options, but McGehee is proven and Gamel isn't.

I did look at his stats for the whole season. He is a nice player and in a vacume I would be happy to have him as our 3b going forward. If you look at the big picture though I wouldn't say Gamel is "blocked" at 3B. I am not arguing that McGehee is good or bad, I am arguing with the definetive stance that you took, then the ensuing mocking of my post that took place.

 

I truly believe that McGehee is an average 3B in this league right now when offense and defense are factored in. That is valuable considering his pay and control. I don't know how long he will keep this up though. Additionally, I think Gamel would be average right now as well and will be greatly above average over the coming 6 years. Depending on how 1B and RF shake out as well as the SP, I would not say Gamel is "blocked" at 3B and I can't agree with someone who says that.

[Invader3K]

I think this debate is somewhat pointless. The reason I say that is I believe come 2011, one of Gamel and McGehee will be the starting 3B for the Brewers, and the other will be the starting 1B. I don't really see any other realistic scenario out there.

[pete]

Hmmmm... 5 errors in 32 games. There's a decent chance that the one at 1st could be fielding a throw rather than a batted ball. Thanks for checking. Not great, but maybe he's coming around. If you give him a mulligan on the one at 1st, that's about 1 every 8 games. That's around what decent MLB 3rd baseman do. He also seems to be involved in a lot of double plays. I dunno, small sample of low quality information, but at least it sounds positive. Maybe the thought of being an OF or 1st baseman focused him. /end ramble

[PrinceFielderx1]

PrinceFielderx1[/b]]thebruce44

 

Look at Mcgehee 2010 stats for the whole season. Look at what he did last season. Many people wondered going into this season if McGehee was for real, and now it looks like he is. The Brewers can't justify giving Gamel priority over McGehee at 3B anymore. They are both cheap options, but McGehee is proven and Gamel isn't.

I did look at his stats for the whole season. He is a nice player and in a vacume I would be happy to have him as our 3b going forward. If you look at the big picture though I wouldn't say Gamel is "blocked" at 3B. I am not arguing that McGehee is good or bad, I am arguing with the definetive stance that you took, then the ensuing mocking of my post that took place.

 

I truly believe that McGehee is an average 3B in this league right now when offense and defense are factored in. That is valuable considering his pay and control. I don't know how long he will keep this up though. Additionally, I think Gamel would be average right now as well and will be greatly above average over the coming 6 years. Depending on how 1B and RF shake out as well as the SP, I would not say Gamel is "blocked" at 3B and I can't agree with someone who says that.

I stand by my position that Gamel is blocked at 3B. What on earth makes you think the Brewers should start Gamel over McGehee at 3B? I personally believe that if Gamel starts anywhere it will be at 1B or RF. His defense at 3B is just not good enough to cut it at 3B. The Brewers have been very patient with Gamel, but he isn't making the progress that he should be making. Considering that he still has defensive questions at 3B, and he is unproven I can't possibly see how he plays any 3B, unless McGehee gets injured. Also you say that McGehee is a average 3B when you factor in his offense and defense. The way I look at it Gamel is a below average to average 3B because of how bad his defense is despite his offense. He still has a lot to prove in the Majors on defense and offense. McGehee is a better defender and has proven more offensively and defensively in the Majors. Nothing right now shows that Gamel will be above average over the coming 6 years at 3B or even average for that matter. I believe that you are assuming to much.

 

Don't get me wrong I like Gamel's bat a lot, but I don't believe 3B is the right position for him. Especially in the Brewers organization.

[battlekow]

There's a decent chance that the one at 1st could be fielding a throw rather than a batted ball.

I think those get classified as "missed catch" errors.

[TooLiveBrew]

Thanks for checking. Not great, but maybe he's coming around.

 

Yeah, given your comment on not remembering many errors from him recently, I got my hopes up. I still think he should be stuck with at 3B, just because his value there is so much higher than at 1B or RF.

 

He really reminds me of Weeks on defense -- elite tools, trouble translating them with consistency. Even though Rickie hasn't turned into an asset at 2B on defense, I'm happy the Crew has stuck with him there. He's an average to below-avg. fielder there overall at this point, but an .850 OPS at a corner OF spot really isn't nearly as hard to find (I'm not sure Weeks would have been any better in CF defensively than he is at 2B). His WAR to this point is 2nd among MLB second basemen, trailing only Robbie Cano's tremendous season. I think Gamel's defense could improve similarly to Weeks's, which would make Mat more of an asset imo on defense than McGehee has been for us.

[Crash2303]

quick distraction from the defense talk: i check Gamel's stats every day and since i originally posted this topic his OPS has risen faster than Strasburg's career. following it is as exciting as following a hot trendy stock pick- it just keeps going up every single day. there seems no stopping it (knock on wood). I love it!

[thebruce44]

PrinceFielderx1[/b]]

I stand by my position that Gamel is blocked at 3B. What on earth makes you think the Brewers should start Gamel over McGehee at 3B?

I already answered this. Not sure why you keep asking. It is clear this debate is going to go nowhere if you wont even read a post from the other point of view.

 

His defense at 3B is just not good enough to cut it at 3B.

 

How much have you seen Gamel play? What is your background for judging player defense and/or scouting? If you are basing your opinion on reports, are they from the Journal Sentinal (specifically AW)?

 

Nothing right now shows that Gamel will be above average over the coming 6 years at 3B or even average for that matter. I believe that you are assuming to much.

Well, we obviously have a difference of opinion here and we may just have to leave it at that. I only wish you would at least consider the oposing view and read my posts. Personally, I think its pretty hard to come to the conclusion that Gamel wont even be average at 3B in the next 6 years unless you are introducing some personal bias into your POV or are getting poor scouting reports.

[TooLiveBrew]

What on earth makes you think the Brewers should start Gamel over McGehee at 3B?

 

Higher offensive ceiling, LH bat, at worst equal overall value on defense

 

 

EDIT: Gamel made the "Dish Pieces" in a recent BA Prospects Blog post:

 

Cubs righthander Chris Carpenter made his Triple-A debut with Iowa last night but was greeted rudely, giving up a two-run home run to Nashville third baseman Mat Gamel in the first inning. Carpenter, who was 8-6, 3.16 with Double-A Tennessee, went on to give up three runs (all earned) on seven hits in three innings of work. He struck out four, walked four and didn't figure in the decision.

 

The homer was Gamel's 13th of the year and he went on to finish the night 2-for-4. After missing the first two months of the season with a shoulder injury, Gamel's been coming on strong over the last few weeks. He's hitting .393/.453/.702 in 84 August at-bats and .322/.396/.536 in 289 at-bats for the year. On the other hand, his defense has still been a sore point, as he's made 15 errors in 67 games at third base and has started seeing some action in right field and first base.

[PrinceFielderx1]

What on earth makes you think the Brewers should start Gamel over McGehee at 3B?

 

Higher offensive ceiling, LH bat, at worst equal overall value on defense

 

 

EDIT: Gamel made the "Dish Pieces" in a recent BA Prospects Blog post:

 

Cubs righthander Chris Carpenter made his Triple-A debut with Iowa last night but was greeted rudely, giving up a two-run home run to Nashville third baseman Mat Gamel in the first inning. Carpenter, who was 8-6, 3.16 with Double-A Tennessee, went on to give up three runs (all earned) on seven hits in three innings of work. He struck out four, walked four and didn't figure in the decision.

 

The homer was Gamel's 13th of the year and he went on to finish the night 2-for-4. After missing the first two months of the season with a shoulder injury, Gamel's been coming on strong over the last few weeks. He's hitting .393/.453/.702 in 84 August at-bats and .322/.396/.536 in 289 at-bats for the year. On the other hand, his defense has still been a sore point, as he's made 15 errors in 67 games at third base and has started seeing some action in right field and first base.

McGehee has been putting up good numbers at 3B in the Majors for about a year and a half. His defense is adequate for the position. Gamel can only hope to be that successful over a full season at a position where he has had serious trouble on defense. I get that he is flat out crushing the ball. His defense according to the piece that you quoted is still poor. The fact that he is playing RF/1B now means the organization is realizing this and is considering moving him. That is the smart move.

[PrinceFielderx1]

thebruce44,

 

This debate is going nowhere. You are not reading what I have been posting and you are only quoting portions of my posts. TooliveBrew quoted a creditable piece that explains Gamel's defense is still poor and that he has now been playing 1B/RF also. Take it for what it's worth. I'm done.

[homer]

 

Higher offensive ceiling, LH bat, at worst equal overall value on defense

I would say he'd be at best equal value on defense initially. Maybe over time he'd be better than that but it's not like he's replacing Braun over there.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think Gamel would be roughly equal because he can get to many more balls than Casey. He'd be like Rickie, though -- making plays others can't & booting plays others can make more regularly. He'd just be bad in a different way imo from McGehee, but overall I feel about equivalent.

[thebruce44]

thebruce44,

 

This debate is going nowhere. You are not reading what I have been posting and you are only quoting portions of my posts. TooliveBrew quoted a creditable piece that explains Gamel's defense is still poor and that he has now been playing 1B/RF also. Take it for what it's worth. I'm done.

Fair enough, I feel the same way. When Gamel comes up this fall I hope you watch him with an open mind and block out the crap Witrado and other fans spew about him.

[PrinceFielderx1]

thebruce44,

 

This debate is going nowhere. You are not reading what I have been posting and you are only quoting portions of my posts. TooliveBrew quoted a creditable piece that explains Gamel's defense is still poor and that he has now been playing 1B/RF also. Take it for what it's worth. I'm done.

Fair enough, I feel the same way. When Gamel comes up this fall I hope you watch him with an open mind and block out the crap Witrado and other fans spew about him.

For the record I don't care to read the stuff posted about Gamel from the JS site. I do however read what other scouts, Baseball America, Baseball prospectus, and Bruce Seid say about the Brewers prospects and farm system.

[uwisfan]

part of my concern was Money recently making it sound like his defensive upside at third was limited.. basically said that his poor defense is to expected with his "heavy feet". Gamel was pretty candid about his poor defense, and basically said that he wants to stick at third, but it's looking more like RF and that he sucks at 1B.

[thebruce44]

part of my concern was Money recently making it sound like his defensive upside at third was limited.. basically said that his poor defense is to expected with his "heavy feet". Gamel was pretty candid about his poor defense, and basically said that he wants to stick at third, but it's looking more like RF and that he sucks at 1B.

In terms of Gamel's defensive upside at third being limited, I don't remember Money saying anything of the sort. I don't remember a comment about Mat's "heavy feet" either. All this stuff gets blown out of proportion until a player gets a bad rap.

 

The way I remember Money's comments is that he was saying Mat needed to correct his throwing with extra reps and that he wasn't progressing as fast as Money had hoped. Its a classic method used to light a fire under a young player's butt. Last year the organization had Cameron pull him aside and say the same thing.

 

The bar is set high for Mat since he could be an elite player at the MLB level. With McGehee, they know what they have at his age. With Mat they want more effort. Being McGehee good isn't good enough. You can see it if you just watch him play instead of reading these second hand reports on him.