Hart Trade Thread: Latest-- Does Hart's injury mean no deal?

[bill hAll Star]

I want the best package available. I don't care where the players are.

 

But by eliminating a whole grouping of players, aren't you inherently putting yourself in a situation where you're not being offered packages that are the best value?

We'd gladly take major league pitching, it's just that 99 times out of 100 a package offered with major league players is going to have a lower ceiling, and most times will have less years under team control.

 

If there was a package around Bumgarner or Hudson or something, sure. If you call that "major league pitching" even though they just got here and haven't reached full potential.

 

As for a package involving a top veteran pitcher, most won't be available, and if they are, they won't be cheap or will be just as close to free agency as Prince.

[PeaveyFury]

If you call that "major league pitching" even though they just got here and haven't reached full potential.

 

I think that's how it's being classified in this discussion. SF/Chicago/Etc are going to be considerably less willing to trade a guy in their rotation right now for anything, but might be willing in the offseason.

[trwi7]

I want the best package available. I don't care where the players are.

 

But by eliminating a whole grouping of players, aren't you inherently putting yourself in a situation where you're not being offered packages that are the best value?

Where in my post was I eliminating a whole group of players?

 

[PeaveyFury]

Where in my post was I eliminating a whole group of players?

 

I was responding to your criticism of the idea that the Brewers shouldn't be concerned about waiting for the offseason when they can get major league pitching. Well, if they can't get major league pitching now, aren't they eliminating that category from consideration now, making the offseason more attractive by default? How can they get the "best package of players" if some of the most attractive players aren't on the table?

[trwi7]

Because I don't think the major league pitching they will be able to acquire will be better than the prospects or the upside of prospects they could acquire. Obviously those prospects might not pan out, but I'd take the chance on that.

[PeaveyFury]

You don't think a guy like Madison Baumgarner wouldn't be better option than guys 1-3 years away from the Majors?

[trwi7]

I don't think we'd get Bumgarner.

[bill hAll Star]

All of us on the "Doug is not smart for waiting for strictly MLB pitching" train don't even bother discussing guys like Bumgarner. Yes, the handful of guys like him are an exception to the rule as already being in the MLB but still being "prospects" and we'd all love to get him. Unfortunately, Doug is a fool if he thinks he can.

[trwi7]

Here's my question. What teams have good, young MLB pitchers who are under control for at least a few more years, are willing to trade them for what is very likely a one year rental, can pay that rental upwards of $15 million next year and find a replacement starter either by a trade (costing them even more prospects/MLB players) or find another decent starter on the free agent market which will also cost at least a few million?

[bill hAll Star]

Here's my question. What teams have good, young MLB pitchers who are under control for at least a few more years, are willing to trade them for what is very likely a one year rental, can pay that rental upwards of $15 million next year and find a replacement starter either by a trade (costing them even more prospects/MLB players) or find another decent starter on the free agent market which will also cost at least a few million?

Perfectly summing up what I've wanted to say. Well done twirly.

[dadofandrew]

The idea a contender can trade a member of the rotation is funny enough, but the point is well taken.

 

I guess Ramos being worth Matt Capps proves anything is possible, but you hardly ever see #1/2 SP potential guys with 6 years of team control dealt, especially for a bat.

[monty57]

Melvin seems to refuse to ever want to be a "seller," even when it seems to be the obvious move. In my opinion, when you are a mid-market team, you have to choose your battles carefully. Buy when you really have a chance at the playoffs, and sell when you don't.

 

Melvin has proven that he is willing to trade prospects for MLB guys in an attempt to make the playoffs. It worked with CC. However, if we never trade MLB guys for prospects when we don't have a realistic shot at the playoffs, all we'll end up with is a barren farm, which in today's world is a death notice to mid-market teams.

[1e Corbeau]

However, if we never trade MLB guys for prospects when we don't have a realistic shot at the playoffs, all we'll end up with is a barren farm, which in today's world is a death notice to mid-market teams.

I could agree with that, if the only way to acquire "prospects" was via trade. Fortunately, you can still draft well, which we do for bats. The pitching track record has been subpar, but I have a bit more faith with Rogers on the comeback trail and the progress of Odorizzi, Hecky, Scarpetta, and Peralta (who was an International FA--yet another way to acquire talent).

 

I'd also like to distinguish between "prospects" and minor leaguers. The former have a chance to be starters in the MLB, the latter are warm bodies with a long shot to contribute. If I'm not offered the former, I'm not dealing quality MLB starters who are under contract for another year.

[monty57]

Why you keep responding only to me and no others as if I'm the only one who believes that there was the potential to trade Fielder and Hart for more than warm bodies notwithstanding, if we only build our farm through the draft, and we occasionally make trades of our prospects for MLB players, we will have a fairly barren farm system. If we do not have a fairly continuous flow of prospects coming from the minors to fill significant roles at the MLB level for league minimum, it will be very difficult to compete as a mid-market team.

 

As I said earlier, if Melvin had actively shopped Fielder and Hart as opposed to waiting to see who called with offers, I think he could have found a deal worth making. He's stated numerous times that he feels you can get more for position players during the offseason, and I think that was his plan with Fielder all along. I have no problem with your belief that Melvin was offered nothing but used baseballs in return for two of the top bats on the market, but that belief is as unfounded as my belief that there was a deal out there worth making. So, "distinguish" all you'd like, I understand that some players are better than others.

[logan82]

As I said earlier, if Melvin had actively shopped Fielder and Hart as opposed to waiting to see who called with offers, I think he could have found a deal worth making.

 

You have not proof that is true. That sounds more like an assumption based on dislike of Melvin because it would make your argument that he is a bad GM stronger.

[monty57]

As I said earlier, if Melvin had actively shopped Fielder and Hart as opposed to waiting to see who called with offers, I think he could have found a deal worth making.

 

You have not proof that is true. That sounds more like an assumption based on dislike of Melvin because it would make your argument that he is a bad GM stronger.

Most of the words typed on these pages by every poster are assumptions/opinions, and I did use the term "I think" many times and I even admitted that my belief is unfounded. Of course the statement you quoted is an assumption. Unless I had Melvin's phone tapped, I'd have no idea how many phone calls he's made or recieved.

However, I don't dislike Melvin. I have been one of his biggest supporters for a long time. What I don't like is that this is the second year in a row where we I've been calling for us to trade off some players to help our franchise for the future, and nothing has been done (last year we actually did the opposite). I don't expect Melvin to read brewerfan.net and say "oh, Monty is calling for a trade, so we'd better trade," but like most people, if I feel strongly about something and the opposite happens, I get frustrated. Now it's the second year in a row, and it gets more frustrating.

When Melvin makes comments like "nobody's calling with offers," it sounds like he's sitting on his butt waiting for the phone to ring. When reports come out that other teams are calling the Brewers and now are hearing that everyone's off the table because we have a shot at the playoffs this year, my head spins. I know it's a report, and it may be inaccurate, but it's all we have to go off of. It makes more sense to believe there's some credibility to the mountain of reports coming out than to believe that they are all just made up by reporters. A big part of a GM's job is to converse with the other GM's in the league and work deals that will benefit your team. Melvin traded Sexson, Overbay and Lee early in his tenure. Since then, he's seemed to be in a "playoff or bust" mode and I worry it will get us to "bust" quicker than it will get us back to the playoffs. Again, I believe that for the sake of a small/mid-market franchise, you occasionally have to trade MLB players in an effort to make your franchise better in the future.

The only reality is that no moves have been made. Everything beyond that is speculation. I choose to believe that somewhere in the baseball universe, we could have made a trade or two in the past two years which would have helped our franchise for the future. Please, feel free to believe the opposite.

[bill hAll Star]

He's stated numerous times that he feels you can get more for position players during the offseason, and I think that was his plan with Fielder all along. I have no problem with your belief that Melvin was offered nothing but used baseballs in return for two of the top bats on the market, but that belief is as unfounded as my belief that there was a deal out there worth making. So, "distinguish" all you'd like, I understand that some players are better than others.

And I laugh every time Melvin says that. I can't think of many teams that are interested in a one year rental of Prince for $15 million. The big buyers have 2011 stop gaps and can make an offer after 2011. The other clubs probably don't want to give up a ton of pitching for that one year rental of Prince given that they probably can't re-sign him.

 

The whole bidding war is a myth.

[Rhett16]

As I said earlier, if Melvin had actively shopped Fielder and Hart as opposed to waiting to see who called with offers, I think he could have found a deal worth making.

 

You have not proof that is true. That sounds more like an assumption based on dislike of Melvin because it would make your argument that he is a bad GM stronger.

Melvin doesn't need help from any of us to make the case he is a bad GM any stronger, he's doing just fine by himself.

 

 

[paulmolitor4]

As I said earlier, if Melvin had actively shopped Fielder and Hart as opposed to waiting to see who called with offers, I think he could have found a deal worth making.

 

You have not proof that is true. That sounds more like an assumption based on dislike of Melvin because it would make your argument that he is a bad GM stronger.

Melvin doesn't need help from any of us to make the case he is a bad GM any stronger, he's doing just fine by himself.

 

I don't think he's a bad GM. He has helped this organization take big strides over the past several years, and I'm sure there are any number of teams that would like to have him as their GM. That said, I think he is a little stuck in his ways and doesn't do too much "outside-the-box" thinking. He seems to overvalue veteran players (esp. pitchers), and seems shortsighted as far as always thinking he can patch the roster enough to compete now (rather than building for the future). I think he (or a new GM) should make the roster over with the intention of being very good in a couple years and hopefully for many years after that by trading veterans away and stockpiling young talent. In my opinion, Melvin is going to have alter his past modus operandi or the game may just pass him by. In today's game, middle/small market teams need to stay one step ahead of other teams always having an eye for the future.

[endaround]

How many actual prospects have actually been dealt this season? Smoak, Ramos and maybe Hudson? Its hard to say Melvin should have jumped for the type of players being offered. Draft picks would be better than most of what has been traded.

[nate82]

How many actual prospects have actually been dealt this season? Smoak, Ramos and maybe Hudson? Its hard to say Melvin should have jumped for the type of players being offered. Draft picks would be better than most of what has been traded.

Smoak is the only player of the three that would be in a discussion for a center piece of a Fielder trade. While Ramos is good he is not an elite player like Smoak could be and Hudson would be someone that you would add to a Smoak like player in a deal for a player like Fielder.

[logan82]

What I don't like is that this is the second year in a row where we I've been calling for us to trade off some players to help our franchise for the future, and nothing has been done (last year we actually did the opposite).

 

Considering the players moved and the deals made, maybe his not making moves is in the best interest of the franchise. I really don't want to hold onto Fielder or Hart and hope for picks but it isn't like the guys moved around are all that great.

[ThePurpleStorm]

Maybe so, but I'm sick of the half truths and bogus statements given out to the fan base, as if they are an ignorant pack of morons. Just tell it like it is. We are not and have not been in contention all season. Quit hinting that we are. No one appreciates it.

[rcon14]

This is the worst deadline in my memory for sellers. Elite prospects aren't moving (barring the Brett Wallace for Anthony Gose prospect swap) and Roy Oswalt and Dan Haren deals were bad for the teams (although the Stros turned Gose into Brett Wallace). In most other years the Crew would've brought in a slew of good prospects, two elite ones and we'd be gearing up for a great team in 2012.

[crewcrazy]

Things might get VERY interesting in the next 35 minutes. Hank Schulman: "Just heard Corey Hart to Giants might be resurrected at the last minute. J. Bautista/Kelly Johnson/S. Downs also in play."