Hart Trade Thread: Latest-- Does Hart's injury mean no deal?

[raven2479]

Hart not in the lineup according to TH again tonight. His trade value is near nothing right now. If Milwaukee wants to trade him they need him in that lineup or this hot start may turn into less in the winter if he cools off down the stretch.

[wibadgers23]

Yeah, it's almost getting to the point where they might have to call up Cain. Talk about the worst timing for an injury. I can't see Hart getting traded at this point.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

TH did say however that Hart was throwing on the field today.

[PeaveyFury]

On Homer's show this afternoon, TH mentioned that Hart is not expected to play until Friday night in Houston, right before the trade deadline. I think that rules out almost all chance of Hart being traded.

[jwill535]

On Homer's show this afternoon, TH mentioned that Hart is not expected to play until Friday night in Houston, right before the trade deadline. I think that rules out almost all chance of Hart being traded.

Unless someone in the league is crazy enough like Kenny Williams, I would tend to agree.

[apirk]

I think it would hurt his value more if they played him while he was hurt.

[Bankjob]

The SF beat writer says the trade talks are dead in the water with the Brewers. That along with Hart not playing, I would agree he is most likely not being traded. I would be hesitant if I was a playoff team to trade for Hart coming off this small injury. Especially at the high price I assume Melvin is asking. He will probably be available in the offseason along with Prince.

[Never Outhustled]

On Homer's show this afternoon, TH mentioned that Hart is not expected to play until Friday night in Houston, right before the trade deadline. I think that rules out almost all chance of Hart being traded.

 

That will give Hart 2 games before the deadline. If he plays well in one of them, its business as usual.

[wibadgers23]

Actually just one game. The deadline is at 3pm CDT on Saturday. So I guess something would have to happen early Saturday.

[Never Outhustled]

Actually just one game. The deadline is at 3pm CDT on Saturday. So I guess something would have to happen early Saturday.

Yep, my mistake, forgot they ended the stupid midnight deadline.

[Oldcity]

I always kind of liked the midnight deadline. It was fun to stay up and watch. Not practical, sure.... But entertaining for me, anyway.

[monty57]

McCalvy just did an article on milwaukeebrewers.com that Hart is likely to stay in Milwaukee. Honestly, injuries have basically taken away any chance for the Brewers to trade anyone. My big reason to tune in recently was to see if there was any trade news. Now the Brewers can play to a near-.500 season (much like 2009), missing the playoffs by a fairly large margin, hoping all along that Hart can continue some semblance of what he did in the first half. With the Brewers' luck, Hart will revert to his late 2008 self and we won't find anyone who wants him next season, and we'll end up paying $7-8MM for a .750 OPS RF in 2011. That will coincide with Prince hurting himself on the last day of the season, forcing him to sit out 2011.

 

Sorry, recent events just don't have me in a very upbeat mood. I've been a Melvin supporter for a long time. However, if we end up getting less than we were reportedly offered this season, I may have to start calling for his head.

[1e Corbeau]

I've been a Melvin supporter for a long time. However, if we end up getting less than we were reportedly offered this season, I may have to start calling for his head.

And therein is the problem. There a few rumors of what was "reportedly offered," but these are all rumors, usually originating from a single source, often as speculation (or perhaps fabricated)--rumors that are rehashed and rehashed through various media channels (digital, print, television, all with varying levels of "professionalism") until they eventually start to exist as concrete offers that were turned down.

 

For instance, Phil Rogers (who has a track record of turning speculation into his daily copy quota, IMO) tweeted that the Rays were interested in Hart and things were "heating up." No source, no explanation, no follow up. Less than 140 characters led to an unnamed source who said the Rays were offering Davis or Moore, with Sweeney thrown in.

 

And Hart for Sanchez? Who was the source on that? Hart for Bumgarner? All speculation. Fielder for Hudson, Beckham, Viciedo, Morel, the retroactive rights to Alex Fernandez? Just because the Brewers are scouting another MLB team? MLB teams are constantly scouting one another.

 

I agree that I would prefer to see Hart moved for a #3-ish SP, but to hold fanciful rumors of what Melvin might have been offered for Hart as some sort of measuring stick seems unrealistic or counterproductive to measuring a GM's performance. Free agent signings and trades that were made seem like a better measuring stick, IMO.

[paulmolitor4]

1e Corbeau,

 

That's way too much rational thought for one post.

[monty57]

Free agent signings and trades that were made seem like a better measuring stick, IMO.

 

Okay, what we do know is that Hart was on the trading blocks, and San Francisco, Atlanta and the Rays showed interest. Hart said he would like the Brewers to talk about an extension prior to trading him, and he was still shopped. Melvin did not enact a trade for Hart. Hart got hurt during this period, making him virtually untradeable.

 

Now we get into opinion (if all we did was talk about trades which have occurred, there wouldn't be much to talk about on these boards).

 

I feel that Melvin, like many others, has concern over Hart's ability to stay hot, as he is coming off of two .750 OPS seasons. Melvin really wanted to take advantage of Hart's hot start and trade him before he cooled off. Rather than taking the offers he was being given, Melvin held out, hoping the offers would go up and the trade deadline approached. This risk didn't pay off, as Hart got hurt. We now have to hope that Hart will come back healthy and continue to hit well for the remainder of the season, or his value could drop significantly in the offseason. I think that Melvin really wanted to wait for the offseason for Fielder, but wanted to trade Hart now.

 

Sometimes GMs have to be judged based on moves that aren't made as well as those that are. If this blows up on Melvin, and we get little in return for Hart, or if he really falls off a cliff or gets hurt and we are unable to trade him this offseason, then we have to look at this as a negative for Melvin. Sure we don't know exactly what was offered, but we do know that various sources all over the country stated that there was interest in Hart. I don't have the greatest faith in the integrity of reports as a whole, but it's hard to believe that numerous reporters across the country were just making stuff up. I agree that some of the "rumors" were speculation, for example, it seemed there was valid ground for believing Hart for Sanchez was a possibility, but then people started saying "maybe we could get Bumgardner," which wasn't in the realm of possible. Hart for Wade Davis seemed a possibility, and then that blew up into "what about Hellickson?" And the Braves have a lot of good pitching prospects, and they were probably willing to trade some for Hart, and of course the speculation blew up into "Hart for Minor."

 

It is opinion, but I believe that Melvin could have pulled off a deal that would have brought in a near-MLB-ready #3-ish starter for Hart. Not a superstar, but someone who's probably better than much of what we currently have. Since no deal was made, in the future we will have to judge Melvin on the team on the field. That includes all of the moves that were made, but also potential deals that could have been made. I'm not into speculating on FAs that didn't sign, and I understand that Dan Haren probably wouldn't have accepted a trade here. What I do know is that last season we could've traded players like Cameron and Hoffman for some decent return and this year we could have traded Hart and Fielder. No moves happened. We got nothing for Cameron, Hoffman almost single-handedly cost us this season, and we'll have to wait and see what happens with Fielder and Hart.

 

Sometimes doing nothing is the best option, but it is a conscious decision and Melvin has to take credit/blame for inaction as well as action.

[logan82]

Hart got hurt during this period, making him virtually untradeable.

 

That is opinion as well.

[naivin]

With Hart's unfortunately timed injury, and the price for Fielder seemingly being too steep, I am back to just hoping the Brewers can win a bunch of games and at least get/stay within striking distance. They aren't going to make the playoffs, but if they can some how reel of a bunch of wins, get back to .500 and 4-5 games back within the next few weeks, I can at least embrace false hope.

 

Hart's injury came at the worst possible time, were at this point there is barely even an opportunity for him to demonstrate that he is healthy enough to be able to hit the rest of the year, and coupled with his well documented inconsistency throughout his career, it makes him a big risk. As it stands right now, I will be shocked if he is traded. With guys like Dunn, Luke Scott, and Lance Berkman out there, same for Fielder. Looking like nobody will be willing to give up the large incremental cost to get Fielder over the aforementioned players.

 

At this point it is looking like the only thing they can do is go win as many games as they can, and get to work on next year.

[1e Corbeau]

what we do know is that Hart was on the trading blocks, and San Francisco, Atlanta and the Rays showed interest.

Again, I don't "know" that those teams showed interest. Just because Hart might make/have made sense for their roster needs and that a few reporters speculated they might be interested, that doesn't make it fact. Also, I'm not sure what your definition of "on the trading blocks [sic]" is, but I'm guessing Melvin would listen on any player, but only pull the trigger if he feels it's beneficial to his club. To me, "on the block" means a player needs to be moved; Hart still has a year of arby, so he can be moved during the offseason or by the next deadline--IF Melvin feels he *has* to move him.

 

Regardless of if any of those teams actually called Melvin on Hart, none of us have any realistic idea of what those teams offered. So, the Braves were interested and offered Melky and Kawakami and demanded we pay Hart's remaining salary. The Rays were interested and offered an A ball reliever. The Giants were interested and offered Aaron Rowand, with us paying his contract and Hart's. Does anyone recommend taking any of those deals? It *matters* what the offers were, and none of us have any idea of what the offers were.

 

To be clear, I would love to see Hart moved for a solid #3 with a few years of arby. But, that doesn't mean that anyone is willing to offer that. And, it certainly doesn't mean that anyone has offered that.

 

And, I'd venture that we're always in opinion here, as each one of us interprets information in our unique ways. But that what makes participating in this discussion--and speculation--so rewarding. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif For instance, I'm still intrigued by the apparent closeness of a deal at last year's deadline that would have given us a blockbuster ace, per Macha. Was it Halladay? Felix? We'll likely never know, but it's fun to dream! It's when the speculation bleeds into making evaluations (something all of us have the potential to do) that my "speculation" radar goes off.

[Tennik]

Sounds like Hart will be back Friday. Let's hope Oswalt gets dealt (scheduled to pitch Friday) so Hart can face a pitcher he can hit hard. That's really the only remaining change of his value returning.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think Hart's value has realistically been affected. It's not a wrist injury, as it's widely reported. It's really a thumb/hand injury, so there really shouldn't be much, if any, long-term concern. Even if Hart can't play or play well before the deadline, he can always be traded after the deadline.

[monty57]

I don't think Hart's value has realistically been affected. It's not a wrist injury, as it's widely reported. It's really a thumb/hand injury, so there really shouldn't be much, if any, long-term concern. Even if Hart can't play or play well before the deadline, he can always be traded after the deadline.

While I agree with you about the injury, if I were a GM, I'd want to make sure he was healthy before I'd trade for him, and one game probably wouldn't be enough proof. I also have some doubts about him clearing waivers, as he's not very expensive and having a very good year.

 

I'd guess he doesn't get traded and then we have to hope he stays hot and doesn't get hurt so that we can get something for him in the offseason.

[TooLiveBrew]

I also have some doubts about him clearing waivers, as he's not very expensive and having a very good year.

 

I thought the post-deadline waivers were where the so called gentlemen's agreement existed amongst MLB GMs. Meaning, guys don't tend to put claims in on players.

[paulmolitor4]

I also have some doubts about him clearing waivers, as he's not very expensive and having a very good year.

 

I thought the post-deadline waivers were where the so called gentlemen's agreement existed amongst MLB GMs. Meaning, guys don't tend to put claims in on players.

I think things have gotten less gentlemanly in recent years.

 

 

[monty57]

but I'm guessing Melvin would listen on any player, but only pull the trigger if he feels it's beneficial to his club

 

I'd hope that Melvin's phone has a keypad on it, but from recent inactivity, I'd guess that it only accepts calls and doesn't call out.

 

To be clear, I would love to see Hart moved for a solid #3 with a few years of arby. But, that doesn't mean that anyone is willing to offer that. And, it certainly doesn't mean that anyone has offered that.

 

I totally agree. Maybe the best deal will come in the offseason. But if we walk away when all is said and done, and Melvin cannot turn two of the best bats on the market, both having another year of team control, into something of value, including at least one #3 (or better) caliber starter for next year's rotation, than I will stand by my assertation that this string of events will probably change my opinion of Melvin. When a deal is being made, there are two sides. If other teams aren't calling, call them. Other GMs seem to be able to trade their players during the season for something of value, but unless Melvin trades Fielder in the next couple of days, it will make two seasons in a row that he has essentially sat on his hands. I still have hope that Melvin will make the right moves. As I said, I have long been a supporter. But, if he can't, and he continues with the "all anyone's offering is A-ball prospects" quotes, then I think it's probably time to find someone who can converse with other GM's and strike deals. Who knows, maybe other GM's are only offering A-ball prospects because of their feelings about Melvin.

 

Feel free to continue to watch and believe that there are no deals to be made. I'll assume that there probably are. Neither of our assumptions can be "proven true." I like Melvin, as he's turned a wasteland into a decent franchise top to bottom. However, we're moving into the next phase of the long-term rebuilding process. We wasted a chance last season to add some decent talent by trading guys like Hoffman and Cameron (again, feel free to believe that no one would've traded for them, and I'll believe they would have). I've said for quite a while now that the time from now to the start of next season will be very important to the future of the franchise. We will have a lot of money to spend, we have some prime trading chips and we have some good young talent. I don't like seeing potential opportunities wasted. Maybe it will turn out for the best and we will get wonderful deals in the offseason. Or, maybe Hart will go into a nosedive and Fielder will blow out a knee on the final day of this season and will miss all next year. There's risk in making a deal and risk in waiting. I hope Melvin chooses correctly.

[monty57]

I also have some doubts about him clearing waivers, as he's not very expensive and having a very good year.

 

I thought the post-deadline waivers were where the so called gentlemen's agreement existed amongst MLB GMs. Meaning, guys don't tend to put claims in on players.

I think things have gotten less gentlemanly in recent years.

 

Agreed. The game has become much more business-like and less old school in recent years. In today's game, I can't imagine that the Yankees and Red Sox are going to sit by and do nothing if they know that the Rays are working on a deal for Hart.