Hart Trade Thread: Latest-- Does Hart's injury mean no deal?

[logan82]

Well the 03-05 years were definitely not playoff years and this year isn't either so I guess his thinking is let the rooks get some playing time.

 

No. Service time has to be high on our list of considerations. We cannot compete head to head for free agents so bringing guys up just to play is not good.

[derflotr]

Well, if they have Cain in their long-term plans than they're not bringing him up "just to play". If playing him every day for the rest of this season makes him better for next year I say do it. I don't really know if Cain needs more time in the minors - he seems to have figured it out though, right? Pretty much every former baseball player I've ever heard from has said that there's basically no substitute for major league experience. Why keep trotting dead weight out there for another month and a half for service time's sake? Chances are they lock up Cain earlier or he becomes a valuable trade commodity like Weeks or Hart is now.

[Never Outhustled]

It is more so about ceiling, most scouts think Davis tops of at a 3-4 man in a rotation while Moore as of right now looks like he could blossom into a top of the rotation guy.

Right now Moore looks like a guy who will repeat A+ next year as a 5th year pro. His ERA is almost 5 in a major pitchers league as a 4th year pro. Davis put up an ERA under 2 in the same league at the same age.

 

Davis was higher regarded when the season opened, and continues to be better. This un-named source that claims Melvin like Moore better is about as reliable as the source that claimed Hart and Coffey were being dealt for Bumgarner.

[crewcrazy]

Moore pitched in 8 games (3 starts) in his first "season" and started 12 games in his second season when he repeated rookie ball. This is his second year of full-season baseball. He's leading the Florida State League in strikeouts. He's in his age 21 season. Let's not act like he's on the verge of flaming out.

 

With that said, I do still prefer Davis, but I don't think Moore would be a bad piece to get, especially for Corey Hart.

[Never Outhustled]

Let's not act like he's on the verge of flaming out.

Yes, because by stating he might repeat A+ I was clearly implying he might as well pick up a job application at Mcdonalds because his baseball career is at a deadend.

[uwisfan]

I figured Cain was under control for a while.. how long does the Crew control him?

[PrinceEatMeat]

I figured Cain was under control for a while.. how long does the Crew control him?

6 years

[804Sox]

It is more so about ceiling, most scouts think Davis tops of at a 3-4 man in a rotation while Moore as of right now looks like he could blossom into a top of the rotation guy.

Right now Moore looks like a guy who will repeat A+ next year as a 5th year pro. His ERA is almost 5 in a major pitchers league as a 4th year pro. Davis put up an ERA under 2 in the same league at the same age.

 

Davis was higher regarded when the season opened, and continues to be better. This un-named source that claims Melvin like Moore better is about as reliable as the source that claimed Hart and Coffey were being dealt for Bumgarner.

Davis is ranked higher due to proximity and floor, not ceiling. For me, it's pretty much a toss-up on who I'd rather have. You know you're getting a solid mid-rotation pitcher with Davis, that COULD become a good #2/borderline #1 ala Gallardo (not to compare the two pitchers in any other way) if he can further refine a third pitch. At the same time, Moore's ridiculous K numbers are tantalizing, and he COULD become a legit ace/perennial Cy Young contender - a ceiling I doubt Davis can match. However, he also has a much greater chance of becoming nothing, and adding his name to the list of pitchers with great stuff that never put it together.

 

As the Brewer's, I'd probably take Davis, because you don't want to end up with nothing (PR considerations aside); there are a stable of young pitcher like Odorizzi, Scarpetta, Peralta et al coming up behind him in the system; and because he's ready now, when the Brewers are in a position to retool rather than tear down and rebuild (with Braun, Gallardo, et al still under contract)

[JJHardy7]

Yes, because by stating he might repeat A+ I was clearly implying he might as well pick up a job application at Mcdonalds because his baseball career is at a deadend.

 

You didn't say that, but you did say he could spend his 5th year as a pro in A+...that isn't exactly saying he's well on his way to the majors/keeping his prospect status/etc.

 

You point is well taken though comparing the two at a somewhat similar time.

 

Any new rumors? I feel like there should be more, but even down here with all the Braves talk I really never hear Hart's name mentioned as a guy the Braves want. The Braves really are looking to add a OF though from the reports/sports talk down here.

[Never Outhustled]

 

At the same time, Moore's ridiculous K numbers are tantalizing, and he COULD become a legit ace/perennial Cy Young contender - a ceiling I doubt Davis can match.

K rate can be used as a predictor, but K/BB might be slightly better. Davis had a terrific K rate (over 10/9 innings) in the FSL, and Moore's is even better. However, Davis K'd almost twice as many per BB as Moore is. Years ago Gallardo and Mark Rogers were 1 and 2 in K rate in the minors, but Gallardo also had a great K/BB ratio, where Rogers rate looked more like Moore's.

[uwisfan]

I'd rather have the guy with the boom or bust proposition. We have enough arms in the system to ensure the 3-5 spots will be covered

[PrinceEatMeat]

I'd rather have the guy with the boom or bust proposition. We have enough arms in the system to ensure the 3-5 spots will be covered

You got that right. We have plenty of back-end starters in our system, too many in fact. We need guys who have the potential to become top-end starters. We need a solid #2 guy in our rotation, and we aren't going to get one unless we take a risk.

[wibadgers23]

The Braves could really use a guy like Corey Hart right now. Their offense is definitely not that great. Whether their willing to give up young pitching to get him is the key obviously.

[GAME05]

maybe it was on MLBTradeRumors, but i'd read that only somewhat recently did Moore's velocity increase by 1-2 mph. if that's true, that could be why Melvin prefers him a little more. and if he were to actually be able to maintain that increase for a full season, his K rate could get even better and he could potentially zoom through the minors, despite not being a young guy in A ball.

[Never Outhustled]

Moore pitched pretty well, but was beaten by Brevard County tonight. He lowered his ERA to 4.64.

[derflotr]

Not sure the Braves are the perfect match, though the Escobar/Gonzalez trade has me a little miffed...though I don't think Diaz is all that terrible LF is really the only place they could put a new impact bat. I know nothing of their farm system but I think they could use an actual 1B more than anything.

[Never Outhustled]

I know nothing of their farm system but I think they could use an actual 1B more than anything

They have a top 1B prospect, Freddie Freeman, playing in AAA. He having a good, but not great season, but he's young.

[PrinceEatMeat]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/98678964.html

 

Article discussing the possibility of Fielder or Hart being dealt before the deadline. Interesting comment within the article is this...

 

"And, despite all the rumors flying around, I have it on good authority that Melvin has not received one legitimate offer thus far for either Fielder or Hart. Let's see if that changes over the next two weeks."

[And That]

Freddie Freeman [is] having a good, but not great season, but he's young.

I think you're understating this a little, X. Freeman is logging an 828 OPS in AAA as a 20 year old. Heyward he's not, but he's not far off. I don't think the Braves are looking for a long-term solution at first.

[Nader Raider Tim]

I've actually been dreaming of a Corey Hart and Prince Fielder deal for Minor and Freddie Freeman.

 

Freeman started out the season banged up but has been on quite hot as of late. in June he had a .923 OPS.

[dadofandrew]

They could use Hart, but you sure don't see much need for Prince in ATL. Glaus fine now, Freeman soon.

[Tennik]

If the Brewers keep winning, my fear is that Melvin may stand pat. Pirates, Nats, and Reds could lead to a winning streak.

[igor67]

Related to that fear, I think the team as currently constructed is very much in a hard place to improve to a consistent 90-win team without major changes. There is essentially no significant hope for an improvement in team defense outside of Escobar, and maybe Weeks remembering what he did correctly last year. That's not enough unless: LuCroy develops into a mid .800 OPS catcher and either Gomez or Cain seize the CF job with .800 OPS production, and Escobar improves into the mid .700's. At that point your talking about a 900+ run offense and you just slug your way in. The problem is that the defense is making starting pitching improvement impossible beyond clear #1 and #2 guys. Basically anybody without great strikeout stuff is going to get hit enough that they look like 4 or 5 starters at best. I don't think there is a clear way for us to find enough of those really good pitchers to overcome the defense, and that scenario for the offense is just too tenous.

 

So yes I believe that the team is reasonably close in terms of expected wins to being competitive, but it needs a lot of work to be more than a 50/50 bet each year to have a playoff shot and not trying to retool now makes it less like that will happen. Put another way there is a practical limit to the number of offseason changes that can happen, and I'd say this team needs about 6 total trades/ positions switches/ signings to have a better talent configuration.

[molitor fan]

I know I may well hate myself in the morning for this but I am starting to like the idea of holding onto Hart for the long haul. Everyone can see the gaps in his swing and I certainly remember slider-gate of the recent past in which he was Flaily Mcflailerson for an extremely extended period of time, but the 28 year old Hart may simply be maturing into his body/role, and I would hate to see him in another uniform doing this.

And by this, I mean having the 11th best OPS in the Majors, 4th best in the NL, and with the top OPS among NL OF's (2nd overall). He leads the NL in home runs (tied) and quite simply, appears to be undervalued by both fans and gm's.

Hart is having a magnigicent season and I think the dropoff from Matt Holiday to Hart may be a much smaller leap than many may visualize.

[brains and braun]

Maybe the light has turned on for Hart, but is that a risk worth taking? He will be expensive next season, and in his FA year. The only way I would keep him is if no one was willing to deal us young, cost-controlled pitching with a #3 upside or better.