Hart Trade Thread: Latest-- Does Hart's injury mean no deal?

[BrewCrewForever]

If Odorizzi continues to dominate like he is and follows a similar path as Gallardo did in the minors, he'll be pitching in Milwaukee in 2012.

I really hope that is the case. Odorizzi should at least be a #2 starter.

 

Well, Brewers vs Braves for four games. Hopefully Hart puts on a show and the Braves get to see it first hand and decide they will deal Minor for him. That would be fantastic.

 

 

[MJLiverock]

I just hope the Brewers aren't counting a guy like Odorizzi to pitch like a #2 his first year at the big league level. It is pretty rare for a rookie to step in and throw 180+ innings of above average to good production.

[monty57]

Good point, MJ, and that's a reason why Melvin's way of having all of the prospects hit the majors at the same time seems to have faults. Ideally, I'd like to see 1-2 prospects hitting the big league every year. That way, they get to have growing pains without seriously hampering the team, and we only have 1-2 potential free agents leaving on any given year. He worked it so all of our hitting prospects came on board near the same time, leading to a few good seasons, and now they're leaving, and now he's talking like he wants all of our good pitching to arrive at the same time.

 

I'd rather have Rivas/Rogers/Butler worked in with Yo, Parra, Wolf, {guy traded for Hart/Fielder}. Then gradually work in more of the prospects. By the time Odorizzi and others are ready, Wolf will be leaving, but Rivas/Rogers/Butler will have some MLB experience. If things work out well, maybe we can start trading guys when they get to the end of their contract / arby and have a nice stream of prospects continually funneling into the rotation.

[logan82]

that's a reason why Melvin's way of having all of the prospects hit the majors at the same time seems to have faults. Ideally, I'd like to see 1-2 prospects hitting the big league every year.

 

That is what he has done for the most part though. One or two guys a year. Butler could be ready at any time. I am not sure how he is doing this year to be honest but if he had not been injured I think he would have been an option for the rotation at the start of the year at the very least as depth. Guys are ready when they are ready. I don't' think Melvin is grouping those guys all together on purpose.

[monty57]

When Hardy, Hart, Weeks, Fielder, etc were in the minors, the Brewers publicly made a point of keeping them together "so they got used to playing and winning together." They all came up in the '03-'05 seasons. Braun was then kind of rushed up to join them in '07, although it's hard to say he was rushed with the way he's performed. Yo & Parra came up in '07 as well, trying for the playoff push.

 

Then we started signing FAs to fill in while this group played, and kind of gave up on bringing in rookies/prospects. Again, this was probably due to an effort to make the playoffs, but kind of kept us from easing in any rookies. McGehee was a rookie last year, but he was esentially the 25th man out of ST, sitting the bench behind Hall and Counsell. For some reason, Gamel was brought up to sit the bench for a while, but never really given the reigns to sink or swim (I know there's a huge debate on this going on elsewhere, so I don't want to start another "was Gamel misused" thread)

 

Now, Escobar became the first prospect to come up & start in three years, and due to injuries and underperformance, we have Lucroy, Axford and Braddock on the team. I hope we'll start to see 1-2 prospects a year going forward (Gamel & Rivas/Rogers next year, Lawrie & more pitching after that, etc). However, Melvin made a comment hinting that he'd rather get Moore than Davis so that he can come up at the same time as Odorizzi. Granted, you need to have the players ready to bring them up, but it kind of looks like Melvin likes to group top prospects together and bring big blocks of them up together every three years or so.

 

I'm sure this will all play out, but the thought of trotting out a rotation with 3-4 rookies in it scares me, even if they all have good stuff. I'd much rather work them in one at a time, and trade away/let the older players walk as their contracts run out.

[TooLiveBrew]

Melvin made a comment hinting that he'd rather get Moore than Davis so that he can come up at the same time as Odorizzi.

 

Arbitrary thinking like this really concerns me about Melvin. 'You always get more for bats in the offseason' comes to mind. Maybe you do tend to get more for bats in the offseason, but I just hope he doesn't operate so absolutely. It would seem incredibly simple that you want to get the best player (thinking about Davis/Moore), not the one that fits some arbitrary standard you've created.

[monty57]

It would also make sense if we had too much pitching now, and we wanted a younger player who would step in when the current group was gone. But we're kind of the opposite of that with a big need for MLB pitching now and a possible excess of pitching that's a few years out.

 

I agree, take the best talent/value you can get in a deal. If the two players are equal in talent, then I'd take the guy who's ready to pitch for the Brewers now, as he'll fill a needed role now and have some experience when the other prospects arrive.

 

Maybe his thinking is that if he can get 3-4 "aces" coming to the Brewers at the same time, we'd open a new window where we could vie for a World Series for a few years.

[1e Corbeau]

...Melvin made a comment hinting that he'd rather get Moore than Davis so that he can come up at the same time as Odorizzi.

I must have missed this, but when/where did Melvin make this comment? Can he comment on other teams' players? Isn't that tampering? You write "hint"--so maybe he didn't mention Moore or Davis by name, but I'd certainly appreciate reading or hearing the context of his comment myself.

 

Thanks for the info!

[monty57]

You had to ask that :-)

 

In one of these 17+ page threads discussing rumors, there was a link to a rumor that Melvin preferred Moore to Davis, as Moore would be on the same schedule as Odorizzi. It lead to debate on this site as to whether we should target MLB-ready talent or go for best available talent regardless of age/level.

 

Of course, many of these Twitter post rumors are hot air, but it's all we've got to go on, and it's kind of fun to play "back seat GM."

[lcbj68c]

The discussion needs to be Hellickson, not Wade Davis. Don't back down Doug.

[bjkrautk]

You had to ask that :-)

 

In one of these 17+ page threads discussing rumors, there was a link to a rumor that Melvin preferred Moore to Davis, as Moore would be on the same schedule as Odorizzi. It lead to debate on this site as to whether we should target MLB-ready talent or go for best available talent regardless of age/level.

 

Of course, many of these Twitter post rumors are hot air, but it's all we've got to go on, and it's kind of fun to play "back seat GM."

http://twitter.com/BrewerNation/status/18468064782

 

It says the Brewers - according to the twitterer's source - prefer Moore to Davis. No mention of Odorizzi or his schedule to reach the majors.

(...and for the record, the rumor was discussed in this very thread.)

 

 

[1e Corbeau]

http://twitter.com/BrewerNation/status/18468064782

 

It says the Brewers - according to the twitterer's source - prefer Moore to Davis. No mention of Odorizzi or his schedule to reach the majors.

(...and for the record, the rumor was discussed in this very thread.)

Yeah, I saw that one. I was just wondering if there was a different rumor, one in which Melvin actually was on record as saying he preferred pitching that was further away.

 

And, of course, it's fun to speculate! Heck, Keith Law and Buster Olney get paid to make up "rumors". http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

IMO, if the Rays are actually offering Davis or Moore, I slightly prefer Davis, as he's shown results in higher levels, still has a lot of controlled salary years, and we need pitching now--not just in the future. Davis projects higher than a Bush-type #4/5, based on the reports of his stuff. That could set us up with a rotation of Yo, Wolf, Davis, Parra and Butler/Rivas/Rogers/Narvy for net year (or perhaps a better alternative depending on other deals we might make). Sure, we'll need pitching in 2-years, and we'd be lucky if any of Odorizzi/Scarpetta/Arnett (gasp!)/Heckathorn/Covey reach the big leagues in an orderly manner, much less hit their projected ceiling. But, if any combo of them do, then you can have the luxury of moving one of the more established arms for more prospects.

 

Plus, if Hart is the only move, we can internally replace him with Cain/Gamel/Lawrie. That might be an upgrade defensively and offensively. And I'd like to believe that adding Davis to the current rotation might be enough of a bump to sneak into toying with contention.

[dadofandrew]

I think it's obvious that Doug prefers Moore because the scouts love him and his ceiling more than Davis. Needless to say, while I'm sure Doug is familiar with Jake O, he does not have him on a timetable, nor is he counting the days to his arrival. As Jeffress shows, pitching prospects have many problems to defeat before the bigs.

 

One thing to keep in mind is how much better is Prince and Rickie than relatively inexpensive stopgaps, like say Overbay to play 1B or Inglett to play RF. Obviously, you're going to have a dropoff, though using career numbers, Corey and Joe is only about 10 runs a year (Lyle and Prince is 38, if you give Lyle 5 runs for defense, it's still 33). So, can you use the $20M you were going to pay Corey and Prince, and what you get for them, to replace those 4-5 wins? It's not like they'll go from 775 runs to 600 if they lose those two guys, but they'll go from 2nd to 7th, or something like that. They just have to improve the other areas to offset, or limit the falloff.

[wishicouldhit]

Giants just signed Willis to a minor league deal. Just some speculation, Giants plan on trading Sanchez or Bumgarner and willis will take the 5th spot in the rotation.

[schwaby131647185073]

Wouldnt read much into the signing of Willis, that dude is done.

[logan82]

When Hardy, Hart, Weeks, Fielder, etc were in the minors, the Brewers publicly made a point of keeping them together "so they got used to playing and winning together." They all came up in the '03-'05 seasons.

 

And they all came up at different times other than Hart and Fielder. Hardy one year. Weeks part way through the next and Fielder and Hart the start of the next. They came up staggered. Guys are brought up when they are ready and there is a need.

 

 

Then we started signing FAs to fill in while this group played, and kind of gave up on bringing in rookies/prospects. Again, this was probably due to an effort to make the playoffs, but kind of kept us from easing in any rookies. McGehee was a rookie last year, but he was esentially the 25th man out of ST, sitting the bench behind Hall and Counsell.

 

We didn't have anybody that was ready to come up other than Gamel. They didn't give up on bringing guys up. We had a gap in talent. It is questionable whether Escobar or Lucroy are really ready this year.

[DHonks]

Wouldnt read much into the signing of Willis, that dude is done.

Umm, the Pirates thought that roughly 17 years ago when they released some guy named Tim Wakefield. How many teams thought Jaime Moyer wasn't more than a 5th starter? He's a lefty with good stuff and past success, so he'll get an infinite number of chances

[paulmolitor4]

Wouldnt read much into the signing of Willis, that dude is done.

Umm, the Pirates thought that roughly 17 years ago when they released some guy named Tim Wakefield. How many teams thought Jaime Moyer wasn't more than a 5th starter? He's a lefty with good stuff and past success, so he'll get an infinite number of chances

And how many more pitchers have fizzled out, never to be heard from again? I would say the odds are greater that Willis is actually "done".

[Roscoe Chill]

I think it's obvious that Doug prefers Moore because the scouts love him and his ceiling more than Davis.

 

I'm sorry Al, but there's nothing "obvious" about it. Like I said earlier, I have no idea why Davis is being short changed a bit around here. He's done nothing to change his lofty prospect status this year unless you hold it against him that he's been pretty decent pitching for a contending team's rotation.

[YoungGeezy]

I think it's obvious that Doug prefers Moore because the scouts love him and his ceiling more than Davis.

 

I'm sorry Al, but there's nothing "obvious" about it. Like I said earlier, I have no idea why Davis is being short changed a bit around here. He's done nothing to change his lofty prospect status this year unless you hold it against him that he's been pretty decent pitching for a contending team's rotation.

 

It is more so about ceiling, most scouts think Davis tops of at a 3-4 man in a rotation while Moore as of right now looks like he could blossom into a top of the rotation guy. I'm fine with eighter trade if it was to happen. I personally don't see how a Hart for Davis helps the Rays get that much better unless they feel Hellickson can come up and be equally as productive. Hellickson is the pitcher I prefer for us to target but on the other hand if it is Moore, the thought of maybe having a rotation of Odorizzi, Scarpetta, Moore, Peralta, Heckathorn next year in Huntsville is pretty exciting.

[Roscoe Chill]

I've seen nothing anywhere about Davis' CEILING being as a 3-4 man in the rotation. That's what he might become, sure, but the same goes for anyone. His CEILING is the same as Moore's...a top of the rotation starting pitcher. I've seen him compared to John Lackey. I've seen him listed as a possible future ace. I've never seen his ceiling as being what he is now at this moment, on a contending team.

[PrinceEatMeat]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/98611119.html

 

Lorenzo Cain is getting called up. I wonder if Hart is on the move?

[thebruce44]

When Hardy, Hart, Weeks, Fielder, etc were in the minors, the Brewers publicly made a point of keeping them together "so they got used to playing and winning together." They all came up in the '03-'05 seasons.

 

Not only did they come up spaced out, but they are every day players and not pitchers with an innings limit. Also, there were fewer concequences back then to letting them learn at the major league level.

 

Doug has never gone out of his way to bring up a bunch of rookie starters at the same time so I am not sure where this is all coming from.

[PrinceEatMeat]

I just got an update here and the move that is allowing Lorenzo Cain to be called up is Doug Davis to the DL with left elbow tendinitis.

 

Davis just came back from the DL with inflammation around the lining of his heart. He made one start before the break and now he's being diagnosed with this. Davis made his first start since May 10 a week ago and gave up four runs in five innings of work.

 

This move takes the Brewers back down to 12 pitchers. They had been carrying 13 for a while and when Yovani Gallardo hit the DL, Davis came off and took his place and the Brewers elected to have pitching coverage rather than activate Cain. So maybe this is a sign that Gallardo's recovery is going smoothly and he'll be ready when he is eligible to come off the DL next week.

 

I'll have more on this after I chat with Ken Macha later this afternoon.

 

Nevermind, Davis to DL.

[Bombers]

Doug has never gone out of his way to bring up a bunch of rookie starters at the same time so I am not sure where this is all coming from.

Well the 03-05 years were definitely not playoff years and this year isn't either so I guess his thinking is let the rooks get some playing time. Now lets move Hart and let LoCain play every day. Then Edmonds / Gomez can play right. This season is trashed so lets see what we have in Cain.