Hart Trade Thread: Latest-- Does Hart's injury mean no deal?

[1992casey]

Quoted in its entirety, link provided for citation purposes:

Report: Giants have eye on Hart

Posted on: July 4, 2010 1:25 pm

 

Corey Hart The Giants are desperate to upgrade their offense, and Prince Fielder has been one of the more popular names linked to them. However, a new name has emerged, and that's Fielder's teammate in Corey Hart.

 

The report from Nick Cafardo of the Boston Globe notes that while the Giants may be interested, the Brewers may elect to hang onto the outfielder currently enjoying a career season with 18 home runs -- .287/.351/.566 overall. He's making $4.8 million the year and has one more year of arbitration ahead of him; he figures to rake in the money after the year he's having.

 

The Brewers aren't dead yet in the NL Central as they are just 8 1/2 games out. It would be a tough road, but Milwaukee could conceivably rally and make a tight race out of it. As the Rocies and multiple other teams have shown us in recent years, it's not to count anyone out for dead until mid-August if there's still a chance.

 

That aspect will play a large part in the coming weeks as GM Doug Melvin will have to decide whether to go for it or trade off some valuable pieces, preferably for starting pitching. Corey Hart is just one of several whose futures in Brewers garb could be decided by the team's play leading up to July 31.

 

-- Evan Brunell

I see that this is the fourth current Hart thread. If members think discussion is starting to duplicate and a merger is in order, feel free to holler. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Invader3K]

Bumgarner for Hart, straight up. Get it done, Doug.

[trwi7]

Hopefully he doesn't make an out in this series and the Brewers lose every game so the team isn't tempted to buy.

[RockCoCougars]

Bumgarner for Hart, straight up. Get it done, Doug.

That's about what it would take, and I'd have to think about it for awhile as well. I'm not giving Hart away for a couple of marginal prospects with the season that he's having. Heck, 1.5 year slump notwithstanding, he's been an all-star 2 of the past three years.

 

I'm also not as big of a Bumgarner fan as many are here. If he is that good, why haven't the Giants brought him up? Look at his K rate in AAA as well.

[TooLiveBrew]

The Brewers aren't dead yet in the NL Central as they are just 8 1/2 games out.

 

"just" 8.5 games out. Yeah. Reminds me of that Uecker classic, "a couple of grannies & we're right back in this thing"

[trwi7]

If he is that good, why haven't the Giants brought him up?

Umm, they did. He's starting tomorrow. He's gone 7 innings in both his starts (vs Boston and at Colorado) and has struck out 5 and walked 1 in both starts.

 

 

[RockCoCougars]

Hopefully he doesn't make an out in this series and the Brewers lose every game so the team isn't tempted to buy.

So you want the team to tank the next 3 weeks then? I'd prefer they go on a tear to make things at least somewhat interesting. I don't quite get the rationale of dumping veterans who are still young to stockpile 'prospects'. With the talent on this team all locked up through next year, and the dead payroll coming off the books after this season, there is no need to panic and enter a rebuilding process. Did you endure the 90's.

[trwi7]

So you want the team to tank the next 3 weeks then?

 

Yes.

 

With the talent on this team all locked up through next year, and the dead payroll coming off the books after this season, there is no need to panic and enter a rebuilding process.

 

And who are we going to sign with all of this money coming off the books? More second tier free agents who aren't worth it?

 

Did you endure the 90's.

 

Yes. It was a lot like 2010.

[Never Outhustled]

The return for Hart should be significant. Numerous teams have been interested in him even when he was struggling, and just about every team contending has room for another power hitting OF. He isn't a rental. Those things combined means there should be a bidding war for Corey Hart. Hopefully, instead of Melvin picking the pitchers we receive, he instead consults Rick Peterson. We need guys that miss bats, not the sinkerballers Melvin prefers.

[RockCoCougars]

So you want the team to tank the next 3 weeks then?

 

Yes.

 

With the talent on this team all locked up through next year, and the dead payroll coming off the books after this season, there is no need to panic and enter a rebuilding process.

 

And who are we going to sign with all of this money coming off the books? More second tier free agents who aren't worth it?

 

Did you endure the 90's.

 

Yes. It was a lot like 2010.

My mistake on Bumgarner, I was unaware that he was called up. That said, I recall that one of the reasons that he didn't make the team out of spring training because his velocity was way down. I'll be interested to watch him tomorrow.

 

As for tanking the rest of the season, I've never understood this logic fans have in any sport. I remember back in January, many were calling for the Bucks to dismantle things. They actually became 'buyers', went on a nice run, and who knows what would have happened if Bogut hadn't gotten injured. At any rate, they definitely have some good momentum going now.

 

With the salary cleared after this season, I don't want to sign second tier free agents. How about trying to lock up Weeks, Fielder and Hart? Keep your own proven guys instead of overpaying for someone elses mediocrity through free agency or gambling and dumping them for 'Rated Rookies'. This team needs to start developing pitching from within. Going further, if acquiring proven major league pitching through trades or free agency is so impossible, what makes you think that teams are going to part with legit talent from their farm system.

 

As for the comparison to the 90's, there are some simularities. Back then the team had a decent core of young hitters with stiffs like Ricky Bones as the 'ace' of the staff. That said, I would argue that Vaughn/Burnitz, Jenkins, Jaha, Valentin, Cirillo and Vina were a very poor man's (a homeless man's actually) version of Braun, Hart, Fielder, Hardy, McGahee and Weeks. Back then, those guys did good, not great and most were traded for young 'talent' as part of a rebuilding process. Lot's of these trades were for young pitching 'talent' such as Villone, Florie, Rusch, Jamey Wright, Acevedo, etc. because then, as has been the case for seemingly forever, this franchise can just not develop pitching from within. You can say that the failure to turn these guys into anything decent falls to Bando, but Melvin hasn't exactly demonstrated the best accumen in the evaluation of pitching outside of waiver wire type guys.

 

The point is, I would much rather attempt to keep this core together than trade everybody for prospects. If you do that, you run the very real risk of bottoming out like we saw in 2002. Why do that when you aren't running on a Selig-Prieb budget. More specifically to this post, if you trade Hart for a couple of pitchers 2 years away (if ever), who are you going to replace him with? Outside of possibly Gamel, I don't see anyone with much promise that is anywhere close to being ready to step in and be productive, though I hear that Alex Ochoa is available.

[Invader3K]

I do think Bumgarner has been perhaps over-hyped a bit (maybe because the Giants have been so successful with young starting pitchers), but I would trade Hart for him every single time and not think twice about it. At worst, he's just an OK starting pitcher. At best he is a strong top of the rotation guy who can complement Gallardo for the next five years or more.

 

I do not think trading Hart and/or Fielder is necessarily rebuilding. That would imply not being competitive for the next season or two. I prefer to think of it more as a re-tooling for next year. We have position players to come in and fill those positions. What this team does not have is legitimate SP options to call up. How do things look now that Gallardo is injured?

 

Comparing this team without Hart and Fielder to the teams of the '90s (well, mid to late '90s) is a pretty far reach. The talent level on the current club and depth in the minors is vastly superior.

[igor67]

I'm still kind of intrigued by the idea of keeping Hart and moving him back to first to replace a traded Fielder. You could be looking at a big upgrade for next year defensively at a couple of spots on the diamond, which might go even farther to improve the pitching then whoever you get for Fielder.

[Invader3K]

How about trying to lock up Weeks, Fielder and Hart?

 

Because it would be very expensive, and we have very good possible internal replacements for at least two out of those three? Anyway, it appears they've already tried (twice if I'm not mistaken) to "lock up" Fielder, and Satan, er, Boras, won't have any talk of it. Weeks is not really that special as a player, I'm afraid to say, and doesn't deserve some big long term contract. Plus Lawrie is waiting in the wings. Hart I'd be OK with locking up, but he'll probably want to test free agency at this point.

 

Anyway, the whole point of trading Hart (and/or Fielder) is to acquire good young SP. Not guys two years away, guys who will be ready to start next season at the latest. If we're not going to trade for good pitching, and can't compete with the Yankees and others in FA, how the heck is this team going to get any better when the most glaring need isn't addressed?

[RockCoCougars]

Anyway, the whole point of trading Hart (and/or Fielder) is to acquire good young SP. Not guys two years away, guys who will be ready to start next season at the latest. If we're not going to trade for good pitching, and can't compete with the Yankees and others in FA, how the heck is this team going to get any better when the most glaring need isn't addressed?

Yes, but who? You even have it in blue text about Bumgarner. Going

further, the proposals for Bumgarner remind me of how many here wanted

Homer Bailey a few years ago. Frankly, despite the hype, Homer Bailey

blows, which demonstrates that these guys are far from sure things.

Obviously, I was on board for guys like Hughes and Buchholz, but those

guys weren't getting moved- not even considering those two have both had

a lot of growing pains. If a team is willing to move a high upside guy

who should be 'ready for next year,' you have to question why, not even

mentioning the fact that it's quite rare for a rookie pitcher to step

in and to hold his own right from the start.

 

If I'm moving

talent like Hart or Fielder, I'm looking for major league pitching (ala

Cain, etc.), and chances are things like that won't happen until the

offseason. Maybe there will be some issues (contract, personality,

etc.) that will cause an above average starter to hit the trade market

this year. The Brewers should be able to absorb some payroll, so maybe

they can benefit from a team that needs to cut payroll. You never know

what could happen from now to then. In the past, I can remember a few

posters suggesting Greinke when his

value was low, and that may have been a missed opportunity. That said,

chances are the Royals wouldn't have moved him either.

 

 

(fixed code: --1992)

[paul253]

As for tanking the rest of the season, I've never understood this logic

fans have in any sport.

 

I know he said "yes" when you asked him if he wanted them to tank. I personally don't want them to "tank", but what I don't want them to do is play average baseball and maybe gain a game in the next 2 weeks and have Doug Melvin think that the team is going to make the playoffs. I'd love to see them go on a tear and win 10 of 11 games too. But they have a real opportunity to upgrade a declining system right now and I'd love to see them take it if they aren't going to make a run. 8 1/2 games is a lot of games to make up, and they have to pass two teams, not just one.

 

I can't necessarily disagree with Trwi's attitude because I want the team to improve for the future, and the only way to do that is to upgrade the pitching with young, cheap guys. Signings likes Braden Looper, Jeff Suppan, Randy Wolf, and Doug Davis are going to do nothing other than keep the team floating in mediocrity.

[trwi7]

A couple of interesting/funny tweets from those with the Giants.

 

First we have Amy Gutierrez an in game reporter for CSN Bay Area.

 

http://twitter.com/AmyGGiants/status/17815541695

 

O'Rly? The Giants are interested in Braun?

 

http://twitter.com/extrabaggs/status/17814532379

 

http://twitter.com/extrabaggs/status/17818611831

 

Haha.

[logan82]

Weeks is not really that special as a player, I'm afraid to say, and doesn't deserve some big long term contract.

 

2B, even the best ones, don't get paid all that much. Only 2 are getting over $8M per year. 4 years at $32M wouldn't be all that much to lock up avergae production at a middle infield spot. Of course we could also buy position players year to year as well.

[Invader3K]

Newsflash: All 29 other teams in MLB currently interested in Ryan Braun. Film at 11.

[craigharmann]

Hart, Fielder and Braun for Lincecum, Posey, Bumgarner, Sanchez and Sandoval.

[adambr2]

We can't be afraid to take a chance on guys like Bumgarner just because Homer Bailey and others haven't panned out. If we're not going to take some chances with young pitching prospects, we may as well continue to overpay for aging FA starters.

 

Cain is a FA at the same time Prince and Hart are FA's. Unless we had some sort of extension with him hammered out already, trading for a guy like Cain, to me, is just plugging one hole and creating another.

[brewmann04]

Brewers are going to be smart on who they move at the deadline

[RockCoCougars]

We can't be afraid to take a chance on guys like Bumgarner just because Homer Bailey and others haven't panned out. If we're not going to take some chances with young pitching prospects, we may as well continue to overpay for aging FA starters.

 

Cain is a FA at the same time Prince and Hart are FA's. Unless we had some sort of extension with him hammered out already, trading for a guy like Cain, to me, is just plugging one hole and creating another.

I think that Cain is signed for two more years, albeit with big money in 2012. A good scenario for the Brewers would be if the Giants offense continues to sputter (and is seen by their fanbase as the reason they missed the postseason) and Bumgarner is gangbusters for the rest of the year. Maybe then the Giants would decide to add Fielder to bolster their offense despite his impending free agency - 'going for it' next year, seeing Bumgarner as a capable replacement for Cain. Trading Cain would also allow them to free up some cash for 2012 when Lincecum hits free agency- keep in mind they will still be paying Barry Zito at that point.

[804Sox]

Bumgarner for Hart, straight up. Get it done, Doug.

That's about what it would take, and I'd have to think about it for awhile as well. I'm not giving Hart away for a couple of marginal prospects with the season that he's having. Heck, 1.5 year slump notwithstanding, he's been an all-star 2 of the past three years.

 

I'm also not as big of a Bumgarner fan as many are here. If he is that good, why haven't the Giants brought him up? Look at his K rate in AAA as well.

woah woah woah. Now Hart is gonna bring back Bumgarner? Hart is still the same player we thought he was - an average RF. He's done a good job building on his improved plate discipline from last season in order to get good pitches to drive (he's always had some pop), but a regression is certainly in order. I expect an .800-.820 OPS from him for the rest of his season - basically his true talent level. Hart is neither the juggernaut that he's playing like now nor the scrub that many posters wanted to trade for a bag of balls this offseason. He's an ok, low-OBP hitter with good power and average-at-best defensive abilities.

 

just for fun, we should all go back and re-read this thread from the off-season:

 

http://brewersfandemonium...u.com?topic=21344?page=1

[wibadgers23]

Since the Giants seem so unwilling to trade Bumgarner, I don't see the Giants as a very good trading partner for the Crew. They don't have any other pitching prospects in the minors who are close to major league ready.

[Never Outhustled]

Since the Giants seem so unwilling to trade Bumgarner, I don't see the Giants as a very good trading partner for the Crew. They don't have any other pitching prospects in the minors who are close to major league ready.

 

I agree. They've almost completely cleaned out their system this year. It seems that there's very few contenders that have minor league talent to trade. Tampa and SD have talent, but can't afford to trade it.