Macha's bench rotting youth

[trwi7]

Starting in 51% of games is hardly regular playing time.

[Invader3K]

Well, I think the greater points remain that Gamel is the only prospect Macha has supposedly ruined that anyone can point to. Also that Gamel has done nothing to redeem himself since that first stint with the Brewers; and it's pretty difficult to say that his mishandling in Milwaukee is what has lead to his currently stalled career. In the past year he has stunk in AAA, stunk in Winter Ball, been injured after possibly not warming up properly, and he's currently not doing anything noteworthy in the minors once again.

 

At some point the finger has to get pointed back at the player, and not a manager he was playing under for less than half a season.

[Fear The Chorizo]

From a results standpoint, Gamel currently projects as an average offensive 3B that can't play 3B defensively at the major league level.

Gamel is better than McGehee defensively according to more than one metric. So, according to your statements, McGehee should also be moved to another position or traded?

Gamel may never produce at the major league level, but it's hard to ignore the success he's had in the minor leagues. He is a legitimate prospect and there are numerous people that feel like he will outperform the Brewers current 3rd baseball both offensively and defensively immediately.

 

 

Yes - I think this whole Gamel/McGehee thing gets determined this offseason, with one of them being traded or with one of them moving to 1st after Fielder gets dealt.

 

I guess I don't buy the argument about most of Gamel's errors being throwing, making him theoretically better defensively than McGehee at third - a third baseman has to make good throws. I would argue that Gamel would be a better defensive first baseman than McGehee due to his range, but both of them are below average defensively at third. If a guy can't consistently make good throws, he shouldn't play a defensive position that places a premium on making good throws.

 

To your second point, there are also numerous people that feel like Gamel has plateaued in his development and doesn't project to be an above average major leaguer.

 

The bottom line is that last season Gamel and McGehee got almost equivalent opportunities to earn a longterm spot on the major league roster. McGehee or Counsell didn't screw Gamel out of even more regular playing time, having Hall on the roster did.

 

[joepepsi]

Starting in 51% of games is hardly regular playing time.

Appearing 84% of your team's games when just getting called up to the majors for the first time certainly is.

 

I think Invader sums up the debate perfectly.

[joepepsi]

Starting in 51% of games is hardly regular playing time.

Appearing 84% of your team's games when just getting called up to the majors for the first time certainly is.

 

I think Invader sums up the debate perfectly.

[trwi7]

Appearing 84% of your team's games when just getting called up to the majors for the first time certainly is.

Getting a pinch hit at bat is difficult for a young player.

 

If you put his average number of at bats over a full season he would have 348 at bats. That's hardly regular at bats.

 

 

[kramnoj]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why Bill Hall got only one less start than Gamel in the time Gamel was up. That is just complete mismanagement.

 

Are you waiting for a good reason, or just a reason? The Brewers went 61-49 when Hall started. 13-17 when Gamel started. And with full disclosure 41-49 when Cousell started. Macha's main job is to win games. Hall performed very badly offensively, but he was still playing good defense for the most part, and the Brewers were winning games with Hall on the field. Macha also probably felt that Hall was going to be better than he showed last year, and his near average offensive performance indicates that was possible, although Hall may have needed to move on to get better.

[trwi7]

Yeah, I'm waiting for a good reason.

 

The Brewers were 80-82 when Fielder started and 61-49 when Hall started. Therefore Hall > Fielder.

[joepepsi]

Hall had fewer plate appearances that Gamel during Mat's time with Milwaukee.

 

As I recall Macha said in Spring Training 2009, that every player had a clean slate with him. Hall had an incredible April and was still clinging to an .800+ OPS in mid May. I'm not saying it was right, but my guess is they were giving him a chance to prove he could hit again and April wasn't just a fluke. The team has invested a lot of cash in Hall. If there was any chance he could be at least average on offense they needed to know. Turns out there was no chance and he was dumped. Fans want decisions to be made fast. Organizations have to be more careful; they don't want to compound one mistake with an even bigger, impetuous blunder.

[kramnoj]

I'm not going to try to make the assertion that team record with player on the field should be used seriously, but I'm certainly not trying to make the argument that Hall was more valuable than Fielder.

 

But if you are wondering why Macha kept penciling in Hall over Gamel, the records of the team with them on the field may have influenced his decisions.

[TooLiveBrew]

The discussion all hinges on what people think of Gamel. While he certainly hasn't roared back to top-prospect status, at the time of his call-up he was absolutely one of the best hitting prospects in MLB (BA's #34 overall prospect pre-2009). The problem I have with how he was handled is that it lacked long-term vision, and honestly I find fault with Melvin just as much -- if not moreso -- as with Macha.

And I know many think this also boils down to whether or not people love or hate McGehee -- for me it really doesn't. I like him too, I simply feel his overall talent ceiling is inferior to Gamel's. The Brewers need to develop players that are special whenever they can, to help offset the lack of ability to sign the top-tier FAs. Imo the Brewers whiffed on a no-brainer opportunity to do this last season in opting for McGehee over Gamel.

They even had the opportunity to play both guys full-time when Weeks went down for the season right after Gamel was called up, but passed. I obviously don't believe McGehee can handle 2B, but at the time the Brewers at least appeared to, and were/are content with subpar defense from him at 3B anyway. I would have gladly taken the defensive hit to help bring along the organization's top hitting prospect, as development of talents like Gamel should always take priority over modest shots at the postseason.

One interesting wrinkle to the present-day discussion is that Gamel, in failing to repeat success at AAA, has still posted superior numbers to what McGehee did there... at age 24, instead of McGehee's 25. And even with falling off a cliff after being sent back down from Milwaukee in '09, the 23-yo Gamel's season was better than 25-yo McGehee's in '08 by a wide margin. No matter what you think of Mat or his injury, he's only logged 160 PAs with Nashville so far, and has plenty of time to get his swing back on track.

Gamel might be the only 'smoking gun' in terms of Macha's apparent mistrust of younger players, but he was also (imo) the most important call-up Macha has been tasked with handling thus far in Milwaukee. And it's not like he went to guys like Axford & Braddock this season until his hand was forced, either -- though that could admittedly be more due to Melvin's roster management early this season. Overall to me, short of being forced to play them, it appears that Macha believes young players have to prove themselves to him... not a good managerial approach for an organization that needs to develop its own talent, & often at the MLB level.

[Thurston Fluff]

If you look back at Gamel's last couple season's you will find he faded as the season wore on. His best season was in AA and it ended with his numbers in a steady decline. That it happened again in AAA should be more of a concern about him than I think you have. IMHO a guy whose numbers decline as the season goes on once, while not good, is at least understandable. More than once it appears to be a pattern. It might be easy to write it off as Macha and Melvin messing with him but it happened before they did so at a level lower than he is at now.

For my part Gamel has to show he belongs before I'm going to think of him as the next great prospect. Until he does he's just another Brad Nelson or Ben Hendrickson. Obviously I hope he si the next great thing. We could use him soon.

As far as what McGehee did in AAA who cares? We have better information on McGehee's abilities in the majors than what he did in AAA. What he has done since he has been in the majors is far more important. Especially when you take into consideration they came form different teams who may have different approaches, parks, team's competition etc.

[TooLiveBrew]

As far as what McGehee did in AAA who cares? We have better information on McGehee's abilities in the majors than what he did in AAA. What he has done since he has been in the majors is far more important

So far what we know about Casey from his MLB time is that a high BABIP (.330) played a large part in his success last season. With a much more normal BABIP (.297) this season, he's a middle of the pack bat at 3B. Adding in his bad defense, he's just not a very special player.

With a minimum of 270 PAs this season, FanGraphs' wOBA ranking has him 13th of 25. WAR has him 16th of 25, largely due to him ranking dead last in terms of fielding. wOBA is only an offensive statistic.

[monty57]

Macha believes young players have to prove themselves to him... not a good managerial approach for an organization that needs to develop its own talent, & often at the MLB level.

 

I agree with this sentiment, and in today's game where service time is more valuable than ever due to the big contracts signed by top tier FAs, it's probably not the best idea to have top prospects sitting the bench to get accustomed to the majors. Melvin and Macha both deserve blame for the fact that the Brewers have already burned a full season of Gamel's service time with nothing to show for it.

 

Lucroy is fortunate that Kottaras played so poorly that Macha essentially benched him and started playing Jon. Axford and Braddock can thank injuries and Hoffman's implosion for their PT. Fortunately, these players hit the ground running, which is very important for Ken "small sample" Macha. Parra and Narveson both lost a lot of starts this season but thankfully injuries and underperformance allowed Parra to finally get a shot, and he's pitched pretty well as a starter. He's only the single most important "turnaround candidate" this team has. If he can reach his potential, he'll do far more for this franchise than about any other player on the team.

 

I went into the season promising myself I wasn't going to let Macha drive me crazy like he did last year. The poor play by the team has made anything the manager does pretty meaningless, but I do think that now that the team's virtually eliminated, Gomez should play more simply so we can see if he has any future on the team. If he is going to continue to sit 80% of the games, we might as well dump him after the season, as we'll have no idea if he'll be able to cut it as a full time CF and no one would offer anything in trade. Unfortunately, I think the only way this happens is if either Hart or Edmonds is traded.

 

Other than that, unless Macha decides that Davis should take Parra's spot in the rotation, I don't currently have any problems with roster management.

[JohnBriggs12]

Gamel had 468 plate appearances combined between minors and majors in 2009. I don't think Macha can be blamed for the slide in his numbers. Gamel came up at time the Brewers were in first place. He got 19 starts between May 18 and June 21 (the last game where the DH was used). At that time he was hitting .244/.326/.402, and was striking out quite a bit. At the exact same time, McGehee was hitting .349/.414/.500 and the Brewers were still in first place. Macha's focus was and should have been on putting the lineup that gave him the best chance to win. He could hardly be blamed for going with the hot bat there.

 

That Gamel struggled after being sent back down a month later and has not regained the level he was at early in 2009 is on him, not Macha.

 

I do think Macha is a little quick to sit a young player who shows any sign of struggling. But that's pretty typical of most managers. That being said, when a young player gets his opportunity with a team that is contending, he needs to produce right away especially if there are other guys who have shown they can available.

[Thurston Fluff]

So far what we know about Casey from his MLB time is that a high BABIP (.330) played a large part in his success last season. With a much more normal BABIP (.297) this season, he's a middle of the pack bat at 3B. Adding in his bad defense, he's just not a very special player.

 

ZIPs projects Gamel OPSing .694 and CHONE has him at .753 with bad defense to boot. McGehee doesn't have to be special to beat that. Gamel may very well be a good player in the future but isn't anything special yet. I think for him to get there he has some growing up to do. He certainly has to show he can play at a high level an entire season before we should rate him as special. Until then McGehee is the better option just like he was last season.

 

With a minimum of 270 PAs this season, FanGraphs' wOBA ranking has him 13th of 25. WAR has him 16th of 25, largely due to him ranking dead last in terms of fielding. wOBA is only an offensive statistic.

 

IMHO WAR's major flaw is how it treats defense. It should not be weighed the same as offense since the general consensus is it takes about three season's worth of data to get as accurate a reading as one season of offense. Hell WAR had JJ Hardy being better than Escobar and Gomez combined this season. I highly doubt any GM would trade both Gomez and Escobar for Hardy even up even if all other aspects like salary and service time was equal.

[TooLiveBrew]

I have no problem with you finding fault in WAR's treatment of defense, but nothing I've seen has McGehee as even an average fielder. His UZR/150 at 3B last season was -22.0, and this season so far is -13.3. Combine in the old 'eye test' where you can see in plain sight that he just doesn't cover much ground at all, and I think it's very safe to say he's a liability at 3B overall... but he's the classic guy that makes most plays he can get to, and fans tend to think those guys are good or solid defenders.

Just like you saying McGehee doesn't have to be special (based on ZIPS, which would have had McGehee as garbage in '09) to be better than Gamel, the reverse is also true. Neither guy is a very special player at this point, but the reason I rally so hard in favor of Gamel is that he has room still to grow, whereas we're seeing 100% of Casey McGehee's upside.

I think for him to get there he has some growing up to do.

And I think for him to be better than McGehee this season, all it would've taken was some more forward-thinking roster management from Melvin & Macha.

[logan82]

I am going to give Macha the benefit of the doubt on this one(not that I think he deserves it) but if Cain isn't starting after 2 weeks that will pretty much seal it for me. As of right now it sounds like he may only be up until Gallardo comes off the DL.

[trwi7]

I just remembered this from the end of last year with quotes from Melvin and Ash.

 

"When we brought him up, we might have done him a disservice," Brewers general manager Doug Melvin said. "We might have been better to let him stay down there and play the whole year, but he did get the experience and you hope that he learns from it.

But at the same time, no developing player can do what we're asking him to do right now and do very well. It's tough to sit for two or three days, get an at-bat and be effective. That's why you don't put young guys in those roles."

 

 

"I think the only thing we might have done differently is that when it became clear he wasn't going to play a lot, we could have sent him back a little quicker," Ash said.

[logan82]

Yup, I remember those quotes and now he is apparently out of favor with the organization. Their tune this year is that he didn't take advantage of his opportunities.

[monty57]

Actions speak louder than words. I remember Melvin saying that about Gamel, but this year he brought up Lucroy to have him sit the bench this season (he only started getting PT when Kottaras played terribly for two weeks) and he's now brought Cain up to be a third string CF / pinch hitter.

[kramnoj]

It's not really common for a rookie catcher to be a starter. Lucroy has already started more games than Rivera did in 2 of his seasons as the backup.

 

It's far too early to include Cain in this discussion. I think the most likely scenario is that he's up for a few days and gets sent down when Gallardo is ready.

[Thurston Fluff]

Just like you saying McGehee doesn't have to be special (based on ZIPS, which would have had McGehee as garbage in '09) to be better than Gamel, the reverse is also true. Neither guy is a very special player at this point, but the reason I rally so hard in favor of Gamel is that he has room still to grow, whereas we're seeing 100% of Casey McGehee's upside.

 

I never meant to imply McGehee was a good defender only that using McGehee's lack of defense as a reason Gamel could do what he is at the major league level implies Gamel was better defensively. He's not so why bring it up as a reason he should be playing?

Gamel does have upside and as soon as that upside turns into actual production he should be here. Until then why not keep the guy who actually performed better in head to head competition, in the same amount of playing time, ahead of him?

[PrinceEatMeat]

It's not really common for a rookie catcher to be a starter. Lucroy has already started more games than Rivera did in 2 of his seasons as the backup.

 

It's far too early to include Cain in this discussion. I think the most likely scenario is that he's up for a few days and gets sent down when Gallardo is ready.

Agreed, I really don't think Cain will be up here for any extended period of time unless Edmonds or Hart gets traded, Gomez gets demoted, or someone gets injured. If none of those happen I don't think we'll see him up here again until September.

[Flood Pants]

I think something that all three of these situations have in common (Gamel, Lucroy, Cain) is that there is/was at least one other player in the mix with similar long-term value and need for playing time. It's hard to argue now that playing McGehee at 3rd was not the right decision, since he too was a rookie (albiet an older one). Similar situation with Kottaras, as he was hitting very well to begin the season and under team control for a while. Playing Cain either means sitting Braun (not going to happen), Hart (all-star, prime trade bait) or Gomez (hitting poorly, but big upside and need for consistent playing time). I wasn't mad at Macha when Gamel and Lucroy weren't being played, and I won't be mad if Cain isn't played. If anyone is at fault, it's Melvin. But what should we be mad at him about? Packing the team with too much young talent? It simply is what it is.