Macha's bench rotting youth

[cwolf2012]

"Sadly neither happened and they were forced to release him."

 

FWIW, they got a low-level reliever and a little bit of cash back for him from Seattle.

[jwill535]

True, it was a waiver trade.

[TooLiveBrew]

He was horrible as a pinch hitter. (.570 OPS) He was horrible as a DH. (.546 OPS) He struck out 54 times in 128 at bats!!

 

And yet, his overall OPS production was league-average for 3Bmen... as a rookie. That's fantastic, especially since it appeared that if he would have had regular playing time, he would have been above-avg. as a rookie.

[pete]

Macha seems to be one of the most aggressive managers I've seen in playing younger and less experienced players. This entire thing is because of Gamel. The fact that Lucroy is the starting catcher, Ax is the closer and Braddock is getting big innings makes the claim that Macha's clubhouse is where prospects go to die unsupportable. Gamel came up and started a lot. He got regular playing time. I'm sure ten years from now we'll still be hearing about his OPS or whatever supports the argument that he was tragically screwed by the team. Regardless, hitting now would be nice.

[logan82]

Gamel came up and started a lot. He got regular playing time.

 

No, he didn't. The fact that you even posted that leads me to believe you have not read this thread very thoroughly.

[monty57]

The fact that Lucroy is the starting catcher, Ax is the closer and Braddock is getting big innings makes the claim that Macha's clubhouse is where prospects go to die unsupportable.

 

IIRC, Lucroy was given 2 starts over the first 2-weeks (when Zaun was potentially coming back). Then He was given one starter to work with. When Kottaras failed as the starting catcher over his few weeks as a starter, Lucroy was given the starting role. When Zaun went down, Macha basically had to play a young player (Kottaras had a few starts last year with Boston, but is hardly a vet). Escobar is the same case. I doubt Macha had much say as to who the starting SS would be this season. Gomez hasn't been given much of a leash this season. He was part of a 3-man rotation in CF/RF until Hart started playing well, when Gomez was relegated to being the LH part of a CF platoon, so he sits around 80% of the time. For the bullpen, we had Hoffman implode and have a period where he worked with Peterson and wasn't allowed to pitch. Around the same time, Hawkins was injured (and pitching very poorly due to the injury), Coffey was injured and Riske wasn't back. There wasn't much to do other than give a lot of innings to rookies. Axford was put in a save position, succeeded and hasn't faltered once, making it very difficult to move him.

 

If given no other option, Macha will play young players. If they "prove themselves" in this limited window, he will continue to play them. If the "fail to prove themselves" in this limited window, they will be relegeted to the bench or cut. Part of the "rotting on the bench" mantra probably comes from the fact that Macha really likes to play his starters everyday without many days off. In 83 games, Fielder has played 83, Weeks 82, Braun 81, McGehee 78, Escobar 77 and Hart (who started in a platoon) 75. Unless there is an injury or some other circumstance in which the rookie is the only option available, it is very difficult for a rookie to get PT on a Macha team. Take McGehee as an example. He was only given a hadful of PAs for the first month or so of last season. Due to circumstance, he was given some starts, and hit the ground running, so he was set in stone. Capuano had a so-so 3 inning start, and only pitched about 2 more innings for a month.

 

The biggest thing that gets me is the small sample mentality. The first example off the top of my head (not related to PT, but it shows small sample mentality) was Macha saying his team would steal bases as long as they could steal above a 70% rate. When they were 4-for-8 to start last season, he basically stopped running for the season... after all, they were below 70% as a team. He takes small samples to an extreme and I believe this leads to him sticking with players who do well right away and dumping on players who don't hit the ground running out of the gate. If Axford had blown his first save, he probably wouldn't have been the closer. Instead, he saved the game, and now that he's 9-for-9, he'd probably have to blow 5-6 games in a row before he'd lose the role.

[joepepsi]

Gamel came up and started a lot. He got regular playing time.

 

No, he didn't. The fact that you even posted that leads me to believe you have not read this thread very thoroughly.

His first game was the 35th game of the season. His last appearance before being sent back down was the 92nd game of the season. Gamel appeared in 48 of those 57 games, starting in 29. During that same stretch, Casey McGehee appeared in 45 games, starting in 34. In those games Casey hit .336/.395/.557. In that same time Hall appeared in 37 games, starting in 22. Counsell appeared in 50 games, starting 43.

 

Gamel had regular playing time.

[RobertR]

I don't like the way Macha handled Gamel at all. And he's probably been too deferential to some of his veteran pitchers. But, overall, I don't think Macha's been particularly egregious in that area. He's been far more patient with Escobar and Gomez than I'd probably be. Frankly, Gomez is lucky he hasn't been sent down.

 

Honestly, I think I'd rather see Cain in centerfield at this point than Gomez or any of the other options.

 

Robert

[Thurston Fluff]

And yet, his overall OPS production was league-average for 3Bmen... as a rookie. That's fantastic, especially since it appeared that if he would have had regular playing time, he would have been above-avg. as a rookie.

 

Offensively maybe but his defense certainly wasn't. He would not have been an average overall third baseman. He would have been an average offensive third baseman whose poor defense would have put him well below average.

To get back to the original thought has Macha's handling of Gamel really screwed him up? I don't think Macha's use of him last season hurt his chances to make the ML roster this season nearly as much as his own actions have. Looking at his season so far in the minors his OPS is pretty much the same as his career minor league OPS is. Don't know how Macha's handling of him could have hurt his progression when he is doing pretty much what he always has done.

dude had the same chances as McGehee, Hall, Hart, Hardy and every other player on the squad. Some did better than others and got to play more. While immediate production isn't the only factor it should play a role in who plays. As joepepsi pointed out they all had a fair shot at showing their abilities and the one who was playing best played the most. Looking at how well McGehee did in the same period with the same amount of playing time it's hard to argue Gamel deserved more time than McGehee did.

[trwi7]

Offensively maybe but his defense certainly wasn't. He would not have been an average overall third baseman. He would have been an average offensive third baseman whose poor defense would have put him well below average.

Small sample, but Gamel's UZR was right around average last year. He showed good range, just had trouble with some throws. Meanwhile, McGehee is still butchering the hot corner as we speak.

[mletto157]

Backupcatchers - for someone who postson this board as much as you, you sure seem quick to throw out opinions as facts without doing any research at all... do you just not like Gamel?

[Fear The Chorizo]

"That's fantastic, especially since it appeared that if he would have had regular playing time, he would have been above-avg. as a rookie. "

Or if you're in the camp that doesn't get a tingle up their leg at the mention of the name Gamel, more playing time would have given him more opportunities to strike out, lower that league average 3B OPS number, and be below average defensively. I think the Brewers should have treated Gamel like LaPorta - the kind of prospect who gives a team more value by trading them before they get exposed at the major league level.

 

I think it's sour grapes to blame the manager for a prospect's struggles - last year Macha was clearly not in the mode of an organizational development manager...the Brewers were in 1st place in their division for most of 2009's 1st half. Macha was stuck with 3 guys on the roster playing at 1 position - Hall made all the money and Brewer management probably influenced an undue amount of playing time. McGehee and Gamel got an equal amount of opportunities during the early part of the season - McGehee outperformed Gamel, and the Brewers' sudden pitching implosion forced the Brewers to option Gamel back down to clear roster space. If I'm not mistaken McGehee was out of options and would have almost certainly been claimed by another team had the Brewers opted to keep Gamel in the bigs. I think where the Brewers went wrong was not looking to trade one of Gamel or McGehee this past offseason - something I can definitely see them trying to do with McGehee after this year now that he's established himself, assuming that the Brewers still view Gamel as their 3B or 1B of the near future.

 

Gamel may have gotten a raw deal, but since then he's done nothing to prove just how wrong Macha was for playing a guy with an OPS in the .830's the last two seasons (McGehee) over him. If anything I'd blame Brewers management for a lack of a plan for a guy like Gamel, and give a guy like McGehee credit for taking advantage of his opportunity to establish himself as a major league player.

[logan82]

I think it can be argued pretty strongly either way. I will just say that Gomez and Edmonds are both kind of sucking with the bat right now. I guess Edmonds should get more of the starts since he is the big half of the platoon.

[dadofandrew]

Lucroy, Escobar, Axford, Braddock, and McGehee makes this ironic to me. If they are the best option they play. If not, they do not. Gamel still has a future, but his career numbers at AAA show him to be inconsistent, though he's still plenty young, maybe that should be expected. I still think Mat may breakout and force a move with a .400/.500 second half. He's still the best bet from the inside to play 1B or RF next year, if the incumbents do not return.

[logan82]

How do Gamel's career numbers at AAA show him to be inconsistent? He struggled a little in 2008 when moved up but how many players don't when moving up at the end of the year. .367/.473/.839 looks pretty similar to .371/.436/.808 to me.

[Thurston Fluff]

Backupcatchers - for someone who postson this board as much as you, you sure seem quick to throw out opinions as facts without doing any research at all... do you just not like Gamel?

 

It is not out of the ordinary to state opinions on this site is it? What research should have been done? UZR is virtually useless in such small samples as is pretty much any defensive metric. It seems to be pretty conventional wisdom and nothing out of what has been widely viewed as his weakness. If you have some sort of problem with the way I state things sorry but I'm not doing anything that hasn't been done on this site, indeed this very thread, by a good number of people. If you really just don't like the way I state things maybe skip my posts. I promise I won't get offended.

 

As far as not liking Gamel I don't have an opinion on him as a player yet. I'm not sure if he's all that bright or maybe he's just immature but it has been reported several times that he has done some silly things.

As long as he can play at a high level I don't care about his intelligence or maturity but those things do tend to lead to bad results like getting injured by not warming up properly to swing off a tee. Guys who don't get what it takes to be both good and healthy tend to be a tease more than a contributor. But that is just my opinion.

 

Small sample, but Gamel's UZR was right around average last year. He showed good range, just had trouble with some throws. Meanwhile, McGehee is still butchering the hot corner as we speak.

 

If it's small sample then why bring it up like it means something? Yes McGehee is bad as well. I'm not trying to say McGehee was better at defense only that I don't think Gamel would have been league a average 3rd baseman if he played more last season. Issues that were widely reported and talked about last season and further back to his very beginnings as a prospect. Issues I have no doubt would have reared it's ugly head with more playing time last season.

[Polish Falcons]

During both 2009 and 2010 Casey McGehee has performed better in the Major Leagues than Mat Gamel has performed in the Minor Leagues, so I am a little baffled by this discussion. Beyond that we have four rookies getting regular playing time including Escobar who probably doesn't even deserve to start right now, Braddock and Axford almost immediately moved into the most critical bullpen roles, and Lucroy is the #1 starting catcher now.

[mletto157]

Not at all Backup, it just looked more like a fact in your post than an opinion - that's the only issue I had with it.

[TJseven]

The main problem with Gamel is that we hear enough jazzy sax in our head watching this team as is. We can't have another defender throwing the ball all over the infield. I'm not saying Casey is a great 3B by any means but with Casey and Prince at the corners we aren't strong defensively. Throw in Weeks who can look brilliant and then just awful and any slump in the field by our SS is devastating.

 

I want Gamel to get his time in milwaukee soon. At 1st (or 3rd I guess) when Prince is dealt. I really prefer Gamel at 1st and it drives me nuts that they don't get him more work there in the minors. Being a lefty with very good range his tools could lead to him developing into a very good defensive 1st baseman. The throws have been his issue and we'd severely limit that at 1st. He wouldn't be a plus offensive 1st baseman but he'd very likely be plus defensively. Its something this team really needs to get more concerned with over the next few years.

[dadofandrew]

Gamel might end up in RF soon too. Doug said that has been talked about as recently as last offseason, and some in the organization felt strongly about it.

[homer]

Gamel needs to start hitting regardless of where he ends up in the field.

[TooLiveBrew]

During both 2009 and 2010 Casey McGehee has performed better in the Major Leagues than Mat Gamel has performed in the Minor Leagues, so I am a little baffled by this discussion.

 

Unless this is some sort of personal interpretation and/or scaling of production, it just really isn't accurate.

[dadofandrew]

It's 100% accurate, I've mentioned the same thing. 859 OPS for Casey in the bigs in '09, 839 for Mat in AAA. This year, it's 800-759. The argument is moot, and has been for 2 seasons now.

 

This is a business, not a old boy's club.

[TooLiveBrew]

Well, if you think players are robots & that the way Gamel was handled last season didn't relate somewhat to him falling off the cliff after (finally) being sent back down to AAA, then yeah I guess it's accurate. But let's not get all preachy like this is so cut-and-dried -- Gamel was Branyan-ing AAA pitching before he got the call, and then was treated like a regular old backup player instead of a 23-yo top prospect that annihilated AAA ball & deserved to get handed the keys. McGehee is what he is: a decent option at a corner IF spot, without any more realistic room for growth.

 

 

This is a business, not a old boy's club.

 

Which is ironic, because McGehee got a better shot at everyday playing time (which he absolutely did a wonderful job with) because Macha liked him more. The sole reason Gamel didn't play is because he didn't qualify for Macha's "old boy's club". If you go cold, hard business decision, it's Gamel ten times out of ten. I'll stop this debate from my end of things though, I've argued this 'til I'm blue in the face and then some. The sides have made their decisions, and obviously no more discussion will change anyone's mind.

[danzig6767]

The main problem with Gamel is that we hear enough jazzy sax in our head watching this team as is. We can't have another defender throwing the ball all over the infield. I'm not saying Casey is a great 3B by any means but with Casey and Prince at the corners we aren't strong defensively. Throw in Weeks who can look brilliant and then just awful and any slump in the field by our SS is devastating.

 

I want Gamel to get his time in milwaukee soon. At 1st (or 3rd I guess) when Prince is dealt. I really prefer Gamel at 1st and it drives me nuts that they don't get him more work there in the minors. Being a lefty with very good range his tools could lead to him developing into a very good defensive 1st baseman. The throws have been his issue and we'd severely limit that at 1st. He wouldn't be a plus offensive 1st baseman but he'd very likely be plus defensively. Its something this team really needs to get more concerned with over the next few years.

He throws righthanded

 

As for how Gamel was treated by Macha, i wasn't a big fan of it either, but bottom line is highly thought of prospects have got sent back down to the minors for a variety of reasons over the years and the simply gotta suck it up and perform to get back up. His numbers so far this year are very disappointing, especially the .392 SLG.