Macha's bench rotting youth

[Thurston Fluff]

At first I was not at all on board with how he handled young players and to a lessor extent his bench in general. While I am still not sure about it I can't think of a young player whose career has been hurt by it. McGehee's career seems just fine after riding the pine for the first 6 weeks last season. Hell he's doing far better than anyone would have predicted when he came here. A waiver wire pickup to one of the better 3rd basemen in the league in a year's time is hardly a candidate for poor player management. Hart's bench time has hardly hurt his season. Lacroy started out with very few games and progressed quite well for someone who was called to the majors before he was really ready.

I'd love to think I was right and Macha was wrong yet can't find a reason to fault him based on results. So what am I left with? Am I as wrong as I think or am I missing something? Please make me feel better. What, or who, am I missing that Macha has really screwed up with his management of young players playing time?

[cwolf2012]

Mat Gamel says 'Hi!'

[trwi7]

I think the issue is, if you're not going to play young players/top prospects, then they're better off being in the minors and not wasting their service time.

[Invader3K]

I blame Melvin more for the Gamel situation last year than Macha. When it was obvious Gamel wasn't going to play a lot, he should have been sent back down.

[endaround]

I've posted before but the whole idea comes down to Gamel. And that seems to be a unique to Gamel thing. Not saying they handled it well I'm saying it wasn't because he was a young player.

[Invader3K]

And some of the blame seems to fall on Gamel for his attitude/preparation/whatever. I don't know of any other prospects that have been wrecked/destroyed/murdered by Ken Macha since he became Brewers manager.

[1992casey]

McGehee was 26½ to start the 2009 season, and Hart was 28 at the start of this season. In both cases, the players were beyond "young," meaning that I wouldn't include them as examples of Macha "rotting" youth.

 

Being a catcher, Lucroy likely benefited from being phased in. There's a lot of game preparation involved, along with becoming familiar with where the pitching staff is at. If he were still on the bench (or actually, in the bullpen), I'd be concerned. But I think he was phased in nicely.

 

As cwolf2012 says, Gamel seems to be the poster child for this concern, and I think it's certainly legitimate. Are there any other players who fall into the "Gamel" category, or is most of this concern based on the handling of just one player?

[Thurston Fluff]

Duh forgot about Gamel. I tend to agree with endaround on Gamel though. IT appears his youth wasn't why he was riding the bench so long. He seems to be either stupid or lazy I'm not sure which.

[endaround]

Or he has the personality that some managers equate with "not caring" See Dunn, Adam.

[TooLiveBrew]

He seems to be either stupid or lazy I'm not sure which.

 

I have a huge issue with this. You have no way of knowing this, yet you're prepared to jump on board with it. This is "Manny Parra is mentally weak" but worse. The Brewers clearly didn't like something about Gamel. Unfortunately this isn't 'Hey let's all be friends and have fun playing baseball' -- this is professional baseball, and the Brewers imho let something that belongs in little league block the development of one of the best prospects in baseball, who produced more than acceptably, even while being jerked around. Honestly, the stupidity in Gamel's situation (imo) clearly came from the organization, and not Mat.

[logan82]

Duh forgot about Gamel. I tend to agree with endaround on Gamel though.

IT appears his youth wasn't why he was riding the bench so long. He

seems to be either stupid or lazy I'm not sure which.

 

First off you supported Macha tooth and nail last year over the Gamel vs McGehee thing. I find it hard to believe you forgot about that. Second I really don't see the need to call Gamel stupid or lazy.

[YoungGeezy]

He hasn't been terrible with young players, people want his head for the Gamel situation but that is it. Gamel is the one road bump in his track record that he has. The Lucroy move appears to have then the right way to go, he has stuck with Escobar and stuck with Gomez until he played himself completely out of the roll. Braddock has been handled very nicely so far, and if you go back and look at his Oakland days he did a nice job with the few offensive prospects he had and a great job with the young pitchers. (You can't put Harden and Mulders injuries on him eighter) Nick Swisher is the prospect that turned out the best from the Macha era but to be honest Macha wasn't given many young postional players to work with. Chavez had been playing for 3 years before Macha got there, Elles was a full-time starter the year before Macha came. Bobby Crosby was handled great he just forgot how to hit after his monster rookie season and has never figured out since and Dan Johnson was handled fine but he just couldn't hack it. Both didn't fail because of Macha actually they had there best year during there rookie season under Macha.

[viaarete]

If I remember correctly, a big part of Gamel's lack of playing time was that Counsell was on a major tear from the plate. Because he was hitting so well, and management felt we were still in the chase, he kept getting starts, and Gamel kept sitting on the bench. I'm not saying it was the right decision to keep putting an old veteran in the starting lineup when you've got a young talent like Gamel on the team, but I can definitely see why Macha would have done so. It really would fall on Melvin, at that point, to send him back to Nashville.

 

That being said, I think that Macha's rep for sitting young players comes predominantly from the Gamel situation; aside from him, I can't recall any young players who spent too much time on the pine while with the club.

 

Of course, all of this is predicated on my spotty memory of last year's lineups during Gamel's stint with the parent club.

[trwi7]

This is a post I made on the minor league forum about a month ago in regards to how Gamel was handled and how playing time was distributed.

When Gamel came up he started 23 times in 58 games.

Hall started 22 times.

McGehee started 31 times

Counsell started 37 times.

Hall and Gamel played 3rd base exclusively, Counsell played 2nd base 37 of the 38 starts and McGehee played 2nd base 12 of the 31 starts.

Lopez wasn't even on the team until July 20th and the move to make room for Lopez was to send Gamel back to Nashville. Gamel then got called back up September 8th, a 25 game stretch where he collected a grand total of 15 at bats and one start while not getting on the field for 12 of those 25 games.

His situation was completely botched and it was evident from the beginning when Macha said he was put in a "zim-zam." And the facts speak clearly about it as well as the top organizational prospect started just one more game than the awful Bill Hall.

Link

[Diskono]

Mat Gamel says 'Hi!'

Bobby Crosby, Nick Swisher, Dan Johnson, Rich Harden, Huston Street, Dan Haren, Jonathan Lucroy and Alcides Escobar say "Mat, maybe you're just not good enough."

[trwi7]

Bobby Crosby, Nick Swisher, Dan Johnson, Rich Harden, Huston Street, Dan Haren, Jonathan Lucroy and Alcides Escobar say "Mat, maybe you're just not good enough."

Bill Hall says "I'm awesome. I got almost as many starts as Gamel did last year."

[Thurston Fluff]

I have never once said Manny was mentally weak. Nor am I one to jump on players or to assume the negative in any situation. I made that statement by looking at both things he has done and comments made by some of his coaches along the way. Last season he was late a couple times in spring training. A season in which he was trying to show he belonged in the majors. Then this spring while vying for roster spot he hurt himself by not warming up properly before he swung the bat. What would you call that if not stupid or lazy?

[YoungGeezy]

First off you supported Macha tooth and nail last year over the Gamel vs McGehee thing. I find it hard to believe you forgot about that. Second I really don't see the need to call Gamel stupid or lazy.

Agreed, there is nothing that suggests that Gamel lacks intellegence or that he is lazy. He has that layed back type personality from what I have read about him and heard in interviews but that doesn't make him "lazy." I also don't know what stupid would have to do with anything eighter, it is not like you need to be a rocket scientist to play the game. He has good range at 3rd with a wild arm (on routine plays, if he doesn't have time to think he makes some pretty great plays) and he is a great line drive hitter who has good power in his bat but he K's at a decent rate, so what does that have to do with intellegence?

 

 

Eighter way I think Gamel's biggest issue is just his untimely injuries, maybe there was something more there with the Gamel -Macha relationship but who knows

[viaarete]

Thanks, trwi7

[Diskono]

Bill Hall says "I'm awesome. I got almost as many starts as Gamel did last year."

Not sure what Bill Hall has to do with this, but my point was that the way Ken Macha handled Gamel's playing time last season does not appear to be part of a pattern at all, and that its ridiculous to freak out every time a prospect gets called up. Gamel just wasn't playing all that well, and that's probably why he didn't play very much. Yes, Hall was worse, and he got even fewer starts...imagine that.

[trwi7]

Gamel just wasn't playing all that well, and that's probably why he didn't play very much. Yes, Hall was worse, and he got even fewer starts...imagine that.

Gamel was well over an .800 OPS when he started. He could've been the everyday 3B, McGehee could've played at 2B. Counsell and Hall could've come off the bench.

 

And yes, Hall was way, way, way worse than Gamel and still got only one less start than him.

 

 

[homer]

I think it's dumb to bring up a highly regarded prospect and have him sit on the bench but I really don't think it "ruins" him.

[Thurston Fluff]

How did that untimely injury occur? From not warming up properly before he swung the bat. That's not untimely that is one waiting to happen.

IF he had never had injury problems before maybe I could overlook a failure to warm up properly but he was so I won't. His injury was a stupid one that could have been avoided. I suspect his age may be a major factor in his actions so maybe he isn't stupid as a person just stupid like many of us were at his age.

[twobrewers]

Am I the only one who hates the "Gamel had an over .800 OPS in games he started argument"?

 

That is just manipulating a sample size to make your point. I BELIEVE the theory is that with regular playing time, he would have continued to have an over .800 OPS. But even when he did start, it wasn't always regular playing time. He would start a game here and there and then sit for the next few games.

 

He was horrible as a pinch hitter. (.570 OPS) He was horrible as a DH. (.546 OPS) He struck out 54 times in 128 at bats!!

 

Mat will likely have a success major league career. But everyone acts like he is bound for the Hall of Fame. McGehee has outplayed him as a Brewer. Bill Hall was getting starts over him in the hopes that he could revert back to his 2007 form.

 

I think Macha has done a good job of managing playing time - and I don't even like Ken Macha!

[jwill535]

Again it was widely reported that Mat lacked the desire to better his skills. IIRC he would blow off or decline invitations to get extra work with Willie.

 

As it related to Hall, the Brewers were in a tight spot here. They had a high priced player and in order to salvage some sort of return they needed to play him and hope he did well that he would be worth his contract or in the least bring something back in return in a trade. Sadly neither happened and they were forced to release him. On the bright side, I think they learned from this in regards to Suppan and just stopped playing him and then finally cut the cord.