When will the Brewers break out of their funk versus the Twins?

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

With the second half of the border rivalry starting tonight, i've been wondering for awhile when the Brewers will finally take as series from the Twins. Haven't looked it up, but i'd guess that it has been at least five years (10 series) since the Brewers last won 2/3 from the most successful small market team in baseball.

 

I'll have my Joe Mauer jersey and Brewers ball cap on tonight...

[Invader3K]

I hope so. I am going to both Wednesday and Thursday's games.

[Ennder]

June of 2007 we won 2 of 3 vs them in Minn. 2005 we won 2 of 3 against them in Mil. Twins aren't really a small market team either, they have been a slightly below average payroll team for much of the past 10 years but not because of the market, in fact this year they have the 13th highest payroll in baseball and that number will likely go up with the new stadium so they completely lose any suggestion of being small market in any way at this point. The most successful small market team in baseball is almost certainly the Rays right now and probably the Marlins over the past 10 years.

[Invader3K]

Well, that and their old cheapskate owner, Carl Pohlad (the same guy who suggested they should be contracted and almost sold them to a group who would have moved them to North Carolina) passed away; and the new ownership seems much more willing to spend money.

[joepepsi]

Twins aren't really a small market team either, they have been a slightly below average payroll team for much of the past 10 years but not because of the market, in fact this year they have the 13th highest payroll in baseball and that number will likely go up with the new stadium so they completely lose any suggestion of being small market in any way at this point. The most successful small market team in baseball is almost certainly the Rays right now and probably the Marlins over the past 10 years.

I agree the Twins aren't really in a small market. But neither are the Marlins or Rays. In terms of TV market size, Tampa-St. Pete is the 13th largest market, Mpls-St. Paul is 15th, and Miami-Ft. Lauderdale is 17th. Milwaukee is 35th. http://tvbythenumbers.com...-universe-estimates/5037

 

In terms of metropolitan size, Miami-Ft. Lauderdale is the 7th largest metro in the US. Tampa-St. Pete is 19th. Milwaukee is 39th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...olitan_Statistical_Areas

 

Just because no one goes to ball games in Florida doesn't make it a small market. It's the 4th largest state in the Union.

[rluzinski]

The market that really matters is the one that cares about professional baseball, though. Total market size is just part of the equation. As a baseball owener, it doesn't matter if you have a billion people within 50 miles of you if none of them are willing to spend money on your product.

 

Here is how the Brewers over the last decade against the Twins:

 

2010: 1-2

2009: 1-5

2008: 2-4

2007: 3-3

2006: 1-5

2005: 3-3

2004: 4-2

2003: 3-3

2002: 2-4

2001: 1-2

2000: 2-1

 

I'm sure that "proves" something.

[mletto157]

Sure... it proves in the last 10 years the Brewers are 23-34 vs the Twins. It proves that our memories are very biased and even though the Twins have been quite a bit better, the Brewers have won a number of series vs them in recent years.

[joepepsi]

The market that really matters is the one that cares about professional baseball, though. Total market size is just part of the equation. As a baseball owener, it doesn't matter if you have a billion people within 50 miles of you if none of them are willing to spend money on your product.

So you are arguing the team owner determines his market size. The Steinbrenner family could cut the Yankee payroll to $15 million, watch attendance go to nothing, then claim they are a small market team. Incompetence, greed, and/or poor marketing should not be the criteria that sets market size. The Twins have pretended to be a small market for years because their owner was cheap.

 

Peter Angelos used to spend a fortune on the Orioles' payroll and they were considered a medium to large market. Then he slashed payroll, attendance went down, and now he claims they are a small market. So MLB pays his team an annual stipend and guarantees its value as compensation for putting another team in his "small" market team's area. Letting each owner determine his team's market size is illogical and self fulfilling. It's also bad for baseball, as the Orioles' example illustrates.

 

Tampa and Miami may be bad baseball markets, but they are not small markets. It's a failure of the team if it can't do a better job of tapping into that large population.

[rluzinski]

Of course the quality of the product influences how sought after it is. So yes, the team's success influences market size. Lot's of things influence a teams' capacity to make money. Population, quality of team, appetite for baseball in the city in question. Isn't that what we care about when we are talking market size? You can put a successful baseball team in Moscow and they aren't going to make money. If you want to insist that Moscow is a large market for a baseball team, be my guest.

 

 

I don't understand why this subject always seems to insight rants. It's like I suggested that poorly run teams in large cities should be financially rewarded for sucking.

[JJHardy7]

Of course the quality of the product influences how sought after it is. So yes, the team's success influences market size. Lot's of things influence a teams' capacity to make money. Population, quality of team, appetite for baseball in the city in question. Isn't that what we care about when we are talking market size? You can put a successful baseball team in Moscow and they aren't going to make money. If you want to insist that Moscow is a large market for a baseball team, be my guest.

 

I look at it this way...how many NFL teams in large markets (based on population) struggle? There wouldn't be all that many. I think another factor is how many smaller markets (based on population) have more than one professional team. There are a lot of moving parts, but to me simply saying a ton of people don't like baseball isn't the path to go down. The NFL really hasn't had this problem in major markets...I think it is more of a combination of market size (by population), number of professional teams in said market, and baseball's popularity. My experience isn't any science, but I have a lot of friends, co-workers, family etc that could care less about baseball. I love baseball. I just think there are more moving factors than some mentioned. Just my thoughts...

[Baldkin]

Detroit, Jacksonville and Oakland all had games blacked out due to non sellouts last year in the NFL.

The NFL teams make a tiny, tiny percentage of thier money from home game attendance. They make most of it from the NFL's TV deal. Comparing that to baseball, where the Brewers pulled in over 1/3rd of their gross revenue last year from gate reciepts is astounding. The fact that, even with drawing 3 million fans, the Yankees pulled in 5 times as much from the gate as the Brewers is ridiculous.

[Ennder]

So you are arguing the team owner determines his market size. The Steinbrenner family could cut the Yankee payroll to $15 million, watch attendance go to nothing, then claim they are a small market team. Incompetence, greed, and/or poor marketing should not be the criteria that sets market size.

 

Pretty much. If the Yankees had a $15M payroll you would include them in the small market teams regardless of the actual market size and they would be a bad team most of the time. Market size itself has very little to do with success in baseball, it is the money that controls that. Obviously this contradicts my earlier statement and I agree, it would be rough for me to call NYY a small market team under this situation, this is a large market team who didnt' spend their money.

 

To compare it to another sport, the Patriots pay their average player less than most teams because they are a large market and successful team and players will sign at a discount to play for the team and get the endorsements. The Red Sox have to pay their average player more than most teams because players know that the large market teams will overpay to get the most wins and they will be able to drive up their prices. It is an extremely different dynamic between the two sports.

[hawing]

Getting back to the original question, Tuesday's game seems like a decent start.

[RockCoCougars]

The Brewers owned the Twins in Minnesota during the mid 90's. Not sure how they did at home, but I think they held their own. At one point, the all-time series was almost a 50-50 split.

[MNBrew]

Well, that and their old cheapskate owner, Carl Pohlad (the same guy who suggested they should be contracted and almost sold them to a group who would have moved them to North Carolina) passed away; and the new ownership seems much more willing to spend money.

It's a small point, but the Twins don't really have new ownership. Pohlad's family still runs the team. His sons were doing much of the leading the last several years of Carl's life.

 

Also, their willingness to spend money, at least this year, correlates in part with their success at the gate last year (which tied to their success on the field) and the revenue streams that go with the first year of a great new ballpark this year. At the same time, the Twins' payroll has been gradually escalating with the experience levels & successes of Mauer & Morneau -- so you could pretty safely assert that the Twins are truly, legitimately, & shrewdly building around their two franchise cornerstones.

[razzzorsharp]

Got the series, let's get greedy.

[RobDeer 45]

Now!

[joepepsi]

La Crosse Day at the ballpark. The beer vendors will be busy.

[sheethead]

Glad to see the Brewers were able to tighten up the AL Central race a bit. The Twins might not be as good as they and their fans think they are.

[rluzinski]

I think the 4-2 record against the Twins this year clearly proves who the superior team is. Hey, the numbers don't lie.

[DougJones43]

I think the 4-2 record against the Twins this year clearly proves who the superior team is. Hey, the numbers don't lie.

I think you're taking this a bit far. This thread was just about how the Brewers hadn't really fared well against the Twins in recent years. That's just a fact, and people like to beat Minnesota because they're a border state rival. People weren't really attempting to draw definitive conclusions about team talent/success, as you seem to be implying. If we wanted to do that, all we would have to do would be to compare each franchises records over the past ten years, and we'd have a pretty clear answer.