Team Defensive Metrics

[homer]

Can anyone give me a quick primer on how to measure good or bad team defense? Errors and fielding percentage alone do not tell the whole story. I was perusing some of the stats on Baseball Reference and found a few interesting ones like Total Zone Total Fielding Runs Above Average but that seems to have a very distinct correlation to how good your pitching staff is (which I suppose is one way to be good defensively).

What I'm trying to determine is total range for team A compared to team B. So maybe Milwaukee and St. Louis have very comparable error totals and fielding percentages, for instance, but St. Louis gets to a lot more balls than Milwaukee does. That sort of thing. Any one know where I can find something like that? Here's a link to the BR team defense page in case anyone is interested.

http://www.baseball-refer...-standard-fielding.shtml

[logan82]

The 2 I like the best are UZR/150 and Dewan's plus/minus. Both are conveniently found over at Fangraphs.

[SoCal Brew Crew Fan]

For all the bashing done on the Brewers starting pitching, those UZR's really lay a chunk of blame on our awful defense. There's not a legit plus defender on the team...although I'd argue Gomez is fairly solid and Escobar is will be. The combination of older pitch to contact guys and one of the league's worst defenses is a bad combo.

[logan82]

For all the bashing done on the Brewers starting pitching, those UZR's really lay a chunk of blame on our awful defense. There's not a legit plus defender on the team...although I'd argue Gomez is fairly solid and Escobar is will be. The combination of older pitch to contact guys and one of the league's worst defenses is a bad combo.

Several people have been saying that for a while. I would say Gomez is our only plus defender(and he only plays part time because of the old guy) and Escobar may be about average or a little below with room to improve. Everybody else looks below average. I was hoping Weeks and Fielder would be about average like they were last year but they look like they regressed. I was also hoping McGehee was just slowed down by his knee last year but that doesn't look to be the case. Lucroy looks solid but he doesn't really field balls so he has little actual impact on balls in play.

[endaround]

For teams stuff, BP's DER says a lot:

http://www.baseballprospe...able/index.php?cid=69267

[rluzinski]

I assume that's just regular old DER. Unlike UZR, DER doesn't try to seperate fielding and pitching. Any way you slice it, though, it's clear that the Brewers as a franchise place little value on fielding. I thought the Gomez signing represented a shift in philosophy but boy was I wrong.

[Ennder]

I assume that's just regular old DER. Unlike UZR, DER doesn't try to seperate fielding and pitching. Any way you slice it, though, it's clear that the Brewers as a franchise place little value on fielding. I thought the Gomez signing represented a shift in philosophy but boy was I wrong.

I don't think that is very fair. Looking at the players we have signed or traded for they have all been at least somewhat defensive minded in recent years. We drafted a few poor defensive guys and a few guys that there was no good reason to expect to be terrible defensively ended up being very bad (Hart as an example, McGehee was supposed to be a defensive 3B when we grabbed him etc). I think they place value on fielding, they just don't have good fielders at the moment and there isn't a lot they can do about it.

[logan82]

Except play Gomez more instead of Edmonds.

[Baldkin]

Except play Gomez more instead of Edmonds.

Or, when Edmonds and Gerut were both playing... play Gerut in CF.

Holy cow has Braun been a butcher in LF so far this year.

[TooLiveBrew]

Braun is just awful out there. I was one that felt optimistic he'd improve. If anything, he's gotten worse (probably just hasn't improved or regressed, though)

[endaround]

There has been talk of defensive peak being around 24. So Braun could very well be getting worse.

[twobrewers]

Any way you slice it, though, it's clear that the Brewers as a franchise place little value on fielding. I thought the Gomez signing represented a shift in philosophy but boy was I wrong.

That might be a good thing. Seattle put a ton of value on fielding this off-season, and they are worse than the Brewers.

[Funketown]

Braun's defense scares the heck out of me right now. Watching him, he truly looks like a -15 defender, and we can only expect that to get worse. I wonder if a move to first base would help...

[bigredrobbo]

Braun's defense scares the heck out of me right now. Watching him, he truly looks like a -15 defender, and we can only expect that to get worse. I wonder if a move to first base would help...

It would stop him being a butcher in left field, I know that much!

[LouisEly]

For all the bashing done on the Brewers starting pitching, those UZR's really lay a chunk of blame on our awful defense. There's not a legit plus defender on the team...although I'd argue Gomez is fairly solid and Escobar is will be. The combination of older pitch to contact guys and one of the league's worst defenses is a bad combo.

This is because it is kind of hard to get to balls that are hit as hard as they have been off of Brewers pitching.

[Baldkin]

There has been talk of defensive peak being around 24. So Braun could very well be getting worse.

Maybe this is true, but you'd think there'd be a point where enough games and time in the OF would make him peak at his personal ability later. I mean, 1 month of fly balls vs 2 years worth has to make you better at judging them, right? Instead, he's just gotten worse since he moved out there.

[MoreTrife]

Braun's defense scares the heck out of me right now. Watching him, he truly looks like a -15 defender, and we can only expect that to get worse. I wonder if a move to first base would help...

could someone explain what they see when they call braun a butcher out there? i watch a vast majority of the games and the only thing bothersome that i see about braun is the poor position he puts himself in to make throws. what other problems exist? i guess i don't have a traiend eye..

[TooLiveBrew]

He gets terrible jumps on balls in general, and often takes poor routes. For an example, take the ball in the LC gap in yesterday's game -- he was late on it, and it was a catchable ball for a better fielder. Then to ice the cake, he dives after the ball is already past him... ugh. He just has horrible instincts on defense, and especially (it seems) in the outfield.

[sheethead]

could someone explain what they see when they call braun a butcher out there?

 

On numerous occasions this year I have seen him actually back up to allow a ball to land for a base hit, rather than give the small amount of effort needed to actually catch it on the fly. Sometimes he appears to be scared of the ball, and maybe this is because he is not really an outfielder.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yeah, I know what you're referencing there, sheethead. He often seems to veer his route back & away from a sinking ball right at the end (sort of fades his route back toward the wall a bit). Instead of "scared of the ball", though, I take it that he's afraid the ball will get past him & roll to the wall.

[FVBrewerFan]

I think both Braun and Hart (mostly because of his arm) could be average at their positions if they put their mind to it. Yet another reflection on the Manager in my opinion. Not all that long ago it looked like Baun was developing into a very good LF. Lucroy is showing some early signs he may be average or better.

 

I'm not so sure there is a reliable source for defensive stats, since each ball put into play is different. Depends where the the pler is positioned, how hard it's hit, trajectory, funny hops, etc. Also, an IF can really boot the ball, but get bailed out by geting a force at 2nd. Or an IF can make a fantastic play, but barely miss getting a fast runner out. Too many variables.

 

The Brewers do seem to be above average in turning DPs when they have the opportunity, but that's just my best guess watching them every day.

[endaround]

Braun never looked good out there. It has nothing to do with the manager.

[rluzinski]

Now Macha is the reason why Braun and Hart are below average outfielders? I'm not a big fan of the guy but he seems to get's blamed for everything.

[Funketown]

Now Macha is the reason why Braun and Hart are below average outfielders? I'm not a big fan of the guy but he seems to get's blamed for everything.

Macha told Manny Parra to kick my dog.

[markedman5]

Mcgehee just cost Manny a run with that whiff.

 

Our defense has got to at least make the routine plays.

 

How they didn't call it an error is amazing.

 

I guess if you have to move your feet you can't be expected to make the play?