Parra Replaces Bush in Rotation Sunday; Bush "not pleased"

[monty57]

(one who profiled as a 3/4 in AAA and one with a higher ceiling in A or so) for Fielder and a low end prospect for Hart.

 

Forget it. If all you can get is a possible 3/4 pitcher in AAA plus a low level prospect for Prince, you may as well let him walk for the picks because you could probably draft two pitchers with more total upside than that with the compensation picks you'd receive. It would just be a little riskier and would take longer. I am sick of all these 3/4 or 4/5 type starters we have. We need more Odorizzi's and Heckathorn's and less Dave Bush's and Chris Narveson's. Same with Corey Hart. If all you're going to get is a low end prospect, you may as well offer him arbitration with his time comes and get a pick or two out of him. Or maybe Corey Hart has actually figured it out at the plate and he can move back to first base once Prince is traded.

Of course, what's forgotten is that the comp picks have to be figured into the trade. Anyone trading for Fielder would get 1.5 years of a very good bat along with two comp picks, so the offer would (at a minimum) have to be better than two comp picks. As far as "excess value," that's probably more of a worry in offseason trades than mid-season trades. If you are shooting for the playoffs, and you have a 1B with "x" value, and you have the opportunity to acquire a 1B with "2x" value without giving up anyone currently on your MLB roster (aka MiLB pitcher), you will increase your team's overall talent and therefore your chances of the playoffs. If you have the money to make the deal, you don't care about "excess value" in terms of his contract, you care about increasing your team's overall talent and chance for the playoffs.

 

I think there is one school that's too high on the return for Fielder, and one school that is far too low on his value. He will very likely net more than a potential 3/4 AAA starter. If we were in the playoff hunt, would you think Kameron Loe (or some other average talent) would net someone like Prince Fielder? To get 1/2 season of Sabathia, we had to give up a former Top 10 overall pick, a near-MLB ready OF and Cleveland's choice of three of our better prospects. Lyle Overbay netted us two "potential 3/4 AAA starters" in Bush and Jackson and Fielder is much better than Overbay. If we trade Fielder soon, we will get a pretty good return for him.

[jeffy]

Bush, Parra, Suppan, Narveson. What's the difference?

One difference is Parra supposedly has the potential to be something, so makes sense to give him as many chances as possible since the team is going nowhere this year. Suppan and Bush will not, I assume, be back...so who cares.

 

Plus aren't we going to need to trade a left-handed starter or two, they surely are not going to go with Wolf, Parra, Narveson, Capuano, (or Davis), and Gallardo next year are they? So maybe "showcasing" these lefthanders could also be related to that.

[endaround]

If they aren't going for it next year, Wolf has to be traded.

[monty57]

Plus aren't we going to need to trade a left-handed starter or two, they surely are not going to go with Wolf, Parra, Narveson, Capuano, (or Davis), and Gallardo next year are they? So maybe "showcasing" these lefthanders could also be related to that.

 

Good point. I had hoped Bush would continue his decent start and Davis would start pitching well, allowing us to trade them this season, but that dream is shot.

 

Now I hope we are able to find a good RH starter, either through trade or FA (we'll have around $40MM to spend) to fit in. I think the only sure things next year are Yo and Wolf, and a strong showing by Capuano would throw an unlikely wrinkle in things. I think there's a good possibility a prospect like Rivas is in the rotation to start next year. This is why I think it's important to let Parra and Narveson get a good look this season to see what we have in them. On topic, that's why I said Bush should've been taken out of the rotation instead of Parra in the first place, so I'm not upset that Parra's replacing him now... I just think there's probably a more tactful way Macha could handle things.

 

Really, if we could somehow find a #1/2 starter to fit in with Yo, making Wolf #3, we'd be fine with a combination of Parra/Narveson/Capuano/prospects filling out the 4/5. The monumental problem will be in finding this #1/2. I don't know that Fielder will get us someone who will be ready to step into that role next year, but he is one possible option for acquiring it. Right now, most of our players (major and minor league) should be made available to trade for that very important piece. If we can't do that, we'll probably make a big push at someone like Cliff Lee next offseason (assuming Fielder doesn't sign).

[naivin]

If they aren't going for it next year, Wolf has to be traded.

With 2/$20 left on his deal, that could be a tall order (but I agree it would have to happen).

[davemakovec]

The best thing I've read is Macha's comment that they did not give Parra enough of a chance. If you like him or not, he's the highest-ceiling-ed pitcher on the staff, and they need to just keep throwing him at the mound until he sticks or proves (proves, not just has a bad couple of games) that he doesn't belong on a MLB roster.

[Never Outhustled]

I said in the at the end of last season that Dave Bush should be non-tendered, and I was right. He is simply not good enough. A waste of over $4 million. Kam Loe would be just of good of starting option and be $4 million cheaper. Doug Melvin is the king of wasting money.

[Never Outhustled]

In all seriousness, the solution is staring Melvin right in the face. Trade Fielder, Hart, and anyone else not named Braun or Gallardo, and get some starting pitching. They may not be the +++ high upside surefire pitching prospects people are dreaming about, but some decent young pitching under control for multiple seasons is better than the virtually none we have at the MLB level right now.

Really? Let Melvin, the guy who has proven by all reasonable doubt that he knows nothing about what makes a quality pitcher, to trade high quality players away for pitchers? Great, I can't wait to get the next Dave Bush or Zack Jackson.

[Ennder]

I said in the at the end of last season that Dave Bush should be non-tendered, and I was right. He is simply not good enough. A waste of over $4 million. Kam Loe would be just of good of starting option and be $4 million cheaper. Doug Melvin is the king of wasting money.

He is good enough, he obviously hasn't recovered from the injury though as his peripherals are completely out of whack with his history. Two very different statements.

[TooLiveBrew]

Very good to see Parra turn in a strong performance tonight. Before he started to (assumedly) tire, he was flat-out overwhelming. I'm really looking forward to his next start.

[TheCrew07]

So am I the only one confused by this JS story? Are they really going to be making decisions based on one game at a time? My goodness... so out of the off day it's Yo, Wolf, Bush, Narveson, then whom? If it's not Parra I call shenanigans on this whole situation just like spring training. How is Parra going to get a fair shot to sink or swim without a regular rotation slot? On the flip, why bring up Cappy if he's not going to start again? This whole situation has just been bungled beyond belief.

 

Set a damn rotation, let the pitchers get stretched out, and lets see what we get. We can't keep shuffling guys between the rotation and bullpen giving them random starts whenever... how is Peterson going to have to chance to work with Parra for example when he's not in the rotation? There are no side bullpen sessions when your pitching out the pen...

 

I don't get any of this and I'm going to go so far as to call all the decision makers clowns, because this situation is a circus.

[Hammer]

I'm 100% with ya Crew07. This has to be the most defunct rotation situation in the last 3-4 years in MLB...seriously, are they really basing their decisions on the small samples? I really hope not...

[Invader3K]

Don't they basically have to keep Parra in the rotation after how he looked last night? Or am I missing something else?

[trwi7]

Why are they taking this on a game by game basis? So Parra starts a game, pitches poorly and they decide to go back to Bush, but then Bush has been coming out of the bullpen so he's not completely stretched out. Then the next bad game Bush has Parra goes back to the rotation except he's not stretched out either so he can only go 4 or 5 innings and the cycle continues. Don't complain about the starters not being able to go deep into games when you're preventing them from doing so by mixing and matching starters.

 

And I haven't read the game thread yet, but I can't imagine that I was the only one screaming at the TV last night waiting for Macha to get out there and take Parra out when he was clearly tired. I'm just glad they got out of that inning without any further damage because that would've been totally unfair to Parra to have those runs on his line after the idiot manager left him in way too long.

[monty57]

Can anyone tell me how this will help this team either in the short or long term? We will have a bunch of guys who are used to a strict routine now wondering when and if they will pitch again. The bullpen will be ruined, as we will always have 2 or 3 guys who may need to start so they can't be used as needed, not to mention that none of the pitchers will ever get fully stretched out to make 7-9 inning starts.

 

I guess anyone who has been enthralled by Melvin's talk of "piggybacking" pitchers should be happy. We're about to see a version of it in action. Go with Yo, Wolf and then a group of Narveson, Bush, Parra, Capuano, Loe, Estrada, Suppan, and Davis who could all start at any time or come in for 3-5 innings of relief. Sort of like hitting the "shuffle" button on a CD player, only without the chance of occasionally having a good result.

 

I'm for looking to the future. Just set a rotation of Yo, Wolf, Parra, Narveson and Capuano... all pitchers who could be on the team past this season. Bush should be out of the rotation, as he's gone next year and isn't pitching well. Deal with Davis when he's healthy.

[craigharmann]

This is idiotic. The rotation at this point needs to be as monty said.....Yo, Wolf, Parra, Narveson and Cappy. At this point, those are your best 5 starters. The idea of guys having undefined roles is just stupid. No one is going to know what to expect from game to game. Look at what happened to Estrada. Stretched out as a starter, and used in the majors as a reliever, pitching 3 days in a row. That's smart. And you wonder why he's now on the DL.

[Invader3K]

I wish Mark Attanasio would step in and do something. Either Macha is using the entire pitching staff stupidly, or Melvin is dictating to him how to run things, or both. The owner needs to step in and tell these guys to quit wrecking his pitchers, or go find a new job. (Or maybe simply the latter).

[endaround]

Until this happens, I'd remain calm. This might just be put out there to calm Bush down or to remove Narveson if he still can't get RHers out.

[Invader3K]

I also wonder if a trade may be in the works, though it's hard to imagine Parra or Bush having much trade value at this point.

[Funketown]

If Bush gets the start on Thursday, it will be a facepalm moment. If this team is thinking about the future, which I hope they are, it's time to commit to Gallardo, Wolf, Narveson, and Parra in the rotation for a decent chunk of time. Bush isn't going to be around next year; if he can't provide value to the club in this season, there's no reason to have him in the rotation. If (and this is a big if) Parra can finally figure it out, the club's rotation will not look nearly as dire for the future:

 

Gallardo (2014/2015)

Wolf (2012/2013)

Parra (2013)

Narveson (2015?)

???

 

That's not the making of an elite rotation, but if Parra becomes a dependable pitcher, it's a heck of a lot better than what they've been throwing out there lately. Narveson looks like a dependable 5th starter at this point, and that's okay so long as he is actually the fifth starter.

[bjkrautk]

If Bush gets the start on Thursday, it will be a facepalm moment. If this team is thinking about the future, which I hope they are, it's time to commit to Gallardo, Wolf, Narveson, and Parra in the rotation for a decent chunk of time. Bush isn't going to be around next year; if he can't provide value to the club in this season, there's no reason to have him in the rotation. If (and this is a big if) Parra can finally figure it out, the club's rotation will not look nearly as dire for the future:

...

That's not the making of an elite rotation, but if Parra becomes a dependable pitcher, it's a heck of a lot better than what they've been throwing out there lately. Narveson looks like a dependable 5th starter at this point, and that's okay so long as he is actually the fifth starter.

Narveson - right now - is pitching like a LH version of Dave Bush. Same horrible WHIP, similar GB/FB ratios, etc. Bush has the 'benefit' of having given up more unearned runs, which is why his ERA is nearly a run lower than Narveson.

 

About the only thing Narveson has going for him is that he racks up more strikeouts and throws more pitches per start than Bush does. That said, due to his inability to keep his pitch count down (19! pitches / inning), he still can't average 6 innings /start. While Bush's per-start numbers are skewed heavily by the meltdown at Target Field last month, he's still been the more constistent guy, putting up 6 quality starts in 11 chances (compared to 2 QS in 8 GS for Narveson).

 

That isn't the type of performnce I would look to commit to.

[endaround]

Narveson's problem is very simple-FIP vs LHers, 2.01, vs RHers 5.34. People questioned if he has the suff to get RHers out on a consistent basis.

[Funketown]

If Bush gets the start on Thursday, it will be a facepalm moment. If this team is thinking about the future, which I hope they are, it's time to commit to Gallardo, Wolf, Narveson, and Parra in the rotation for a decent chunk of time. Bush isn't going to be around next year; if he can't provide value to the club in this season, there's no reason to have him in the rotation. If (and this is a big if) Parra can finally figure it out, the club's rotation will not look nearly as dire for the future:

...

That's not the making of an elite rotation, but if Parra becomes a dependable pitcher, it's a heck of a lot better than what they've been throwing out there lately. Narveson looks like a dependable 5th starter at this point, and that's okay so long as he is actually the fifth starter.

Narveson - right now - is pitching like a LH version of Dave Bush. Same horrible WHIP, similar GB/FB ratios, etc. Bush has the 'benefit' of having given up more unearned runs, which is why his ERA is nearly a run lower than Narveson.

 

About the only thing Narveson has going for him is that he racks up more strikeouts and throws more pitches per start than Bush does. That said, due to his inability to keep his pitch count down (19! pitches / inning), he still can't average 6 innings /start. While Bush's per-start numbers are skewed heavily by the meltdown at Target Field last month, he's still been the more constistent guy, putting up 6 quality starts in 11 chances (compared to 2 QS in 8 GS for Narveson).

 

That isn't the type of performnce I would look to commit to.

K/9: Narveson: 8.00, Bush: 4.81

BB/9: Narveson: 4.33, Bush: 4.50

K/BB: Narveson: 1.85, Bush: 1.07

xFIP: Narveson: 4.54, Bush: 5.37

 

If you compare the two pitchers based on WHIP, ER, and QS, then they look pretty similar. If you use statistics that are much better indicators of future performance, it's pretty clear that Narveson projects to be a much better starter than Bush, even if he only projects as a #5 starter.

[JohnBriggs12]

This is idiotic. The rotation at this point needs to be as monty said.....Yo, Wolf, Parra, Narveson and Cappy. At this point, those are your best 5 starters. The idea of guys having undefined roles is just stupid. No one is going to know what to expect from game to game. Look at what happened to Estrada. Stretched out as a starter, and used in the majors as a reliever, pitching 3 days in a row. That's smart. And you wonder why he's now on the DL.

It's a huge stretch to consider Capuano one of your 5 best starters. What do you base that on? A few good starts at AAA? His last quality major league start was July 23, 2007. That's 9 starts and nearly 3 years ago.

 

I don't have a problem with them mixing and matching some guys for a while longer to see if one emerges. Bush is a FA after this season and he probably has some minimal market value if he can string together 3 or 4 more decent starts. It behooves the Brewers to use him against teams with which he has favorable match-ups. In a perfect world, yes you keep guys on a normal schedule, but being on a normal schedule hasn't prevented these guys from occasionally being awful.

[craigharmann]

Out of what we currently have available, yes, I'd list Capuano as one of the best 5.......would you put Bush out there over him?