Parra Replaces Bush in Rotation Sunday; Bush "not pleased"

[Ennder]

the team was giving bush room to save face.. if he's going to be angry, be angry about the performances

 

Bush has been bad in 2 of 11 outings. Has 6 QS out of 11 (2nd on the team to Gallardo's 8, Wolf has 5). In the 9 games outside of his two blow ups, he has a 3.01 ERA and a 1.42 WHIP. I'm not sure what more you expected from him.

Only if you are a slave to ER. Bush has had 1 good start all year and almost every other start has been mediocre or bad. He has had more K than BB in only 2 of his last 9 games and those were 4 K, 3 BB and 3 K, 2 BB. He also has only had a good GB/FB ratio in 2 starts all year If you take it back a step farther to when he got hurt last year he has had like 3 good starts in that entire time frame. It is hard for me to be bothered by this move.

[monty57]

"I've seen a lot of things I've never seen before," added Bush.

 

Just another sign that the players on this team love Macha.

 

I recently said in another post that Bush should be the one taken out of the rotation because he isn't pitching well and won't be around next season, and Parra should be put into the rotation without the stigma of "pitch well this outing or get demoted." However, there are much better ways of going about things than this. If Macha was going to put Bush in the pen, then he should have done it when Capuano was put on the roster and told him it's permanent. Don't put Parra in the pen, and then change your mind after Bush throws a quality start, and then tell the JS "Bush'll probably be back in the rotation against the Cubs." Now Parra's going to go into his start feeling he has to be perfect, and with his weak mental make-up that'll spell disaster, which will give Macha everything he needs to put the one pitcher on our team with "true #1 stuff" in the long man role permanently.

 

This team is just a mess, and I think that probably has a lot to do with why everyone other than Hart are playing so far below their talent level. Macha's acknowledgement that he finally sat down for 15 minutes with his players "to get to know them" earlier this season (not last year), and seemed genuinely surprised to learn what kind of person Braun was, should have been a clue that he really doesn't know what's going on with "his" team. The sooner this clown is gone, the better.

 

...and this comes after he makes a move I was condoning a few days ago :-)

[jackalope02ca]

Bush, Parra, Suppan, Narveson. What's the difference? If one of them was our fifth starter I would have no issue with things. The problem is we have 4 mediocre pitchers all taking turns starting this year. I expect to see a few changes over the course of the year with guys going to and from the pen. It's not like we have any replacements ready.

[hawing]

I'm just going off memory, but isn't Dave's record vs. CHC nothing to write home about? Or is it even worse vs. STL? Like others, I'm just trying to figure out what field management is thinking.

[Crash2303]

the crew07- i agree with your critique of their past action towards top of the rotation talent- however, i think next year will be different. We have Prince Fielder and Corey Hart to trade. This should definitely garner some top tier pitching- unless he pulls off a sexon trade to get quantity again over quality. I can see it now- ooh, i could get four more 5th starters for Prince and odds are that one of them might be good enough to stay in the rotation.

[Funketown]

the crew07- i agree with your critique of their past action towards top of the rotation talent- however, i think next year will be different. We have Prince Fielder and Corey Hart to trade. This should definitely garner some top tier pitching- unless he pulls off a sexon trade to get quantity again over quality. I can see it now- ooh, i could get four more 5th starters for Prince and odds are that one of them might be good enough to stay in the rotation.

Neither Hart nor Prince, who will likely receive nearing $16-18MM in arbitration, have very much excess value. I'd be thrilled if they could get a couple decent pitching prospects (one who profiled as a 3/4 in AAA and one with a higher ceiling in A or so) for Fielder and a low end prospect for Hart.

[greeg35]

yeah, I don't have a BIG problem with skipping Bush (although I don't agree with it); but its another mention of lack of communication from Macha, this time from a pretty established professional rather than a source of questionable maturity (McClung). These guys aren't children or robots, you can't just order them around and not expect to have to explain or get people to buy into your decisions. People can disagree, and that doesn't have to change the decision; but at least have the decency to discuss it fully. I look at communication as the major part of a managers job...heck, communicate and get out of the way and I'm pretty happy.

[paul253]

(one who profiled as a 3/4 in AAA and one with a higher ceiling in A

or so) for Fielder and a low end prospect for Hart.

 

 

Forget it. If all you can get is a possible 3/4 pitcher in AAA plus a low level prospect for Prince, you may as well let him walk for the picks because you could probably draft two pitchers with more total upside than that with the compensation picks you'd receive. It would just be a little riskier and would take longer. I am sick of all these 3/4 or 4/5 type starters we have. We need more Odorizzi's and Heckathorn's and less Dave Bush's and Chris Narveson's. Same with Corey Hart. If all you're going to get is a low end prospect, you may as well offer him arbitration with his time comes and get a pick or two out of him. Or maybe Corey Hart has actually figured it out at the plate and he can move back to first base once Prince is traded.

[thablingster]

I'm just going off memory, but isn't Dave's record vs. CHC nothing to write home about? Or is it even worse vs. STL? Like others, I'm just trying to figure out what field management is thinking.

In 18 games Bush is 2-9, 5.43 ERA vs. CHC

In 9 games Bush is 2-6, 6.45 ERA vs. STL

 

For comparison:

 

In 4 games Parra is 0-1, 5.84 ERA vs. CHC

In 10 games Parra is 2-1, 2.97 ERA vs. STL

 

If we're just basing this on record, Parra has had most of his success against STL. I'd be more worried about what Capuano's short start tonight plus Parra's likely short start Sunday (on Sunday Night Baseball, no less) will do to our already beleaguered bullpen. I'm guessing Bush will end up piggybacking Parra like Estrada did and then they'll do all hands on deck. After that in regards to the rotation they'll probably slot everyone from there using the day off Monday to start things with Gallardo vs. CHC on Tuesday.

[hawing]

The Brewers want Dave Bush to be Joe Inglett's personal pinch-runner. That's it. That's the ticket.

 

[dlk9s]

Regardless of whether or not Bush being replaced in the rotation is a good idea, it's really weird that he got no explanation as to why it was happening.

[Ennder]

Melvin has to make a move for pitching

 

The only chance he's really had to make this move was the package that brought in Sabathia. Nobody wanted to trade pitching for Hardy or Hart and we haven't really had another trade chip since the team is still in the middle of rebuilding. I don't disagree with you that the problem is with the pitching, I just think your expectations of how to acquire that pitching are off.

[PrinceEatMeat]

Melvin has to make a move for pitching

 

The only chance he's really had to make this move was the package that brought in Sabathia. Nobody wanted to trade pitching for Hardy or Hart and we haven't really had another trade chip since the team is still in the middle of rebuilding. I don't disagree with you that the problem is with the pitching, I just think your expectations of how to acquire that pitching are off.

Prince Fielder is a pretty nice trade chip if you ask me.

[TheCrew07]

Melvin has to make a move for pitching

The only chance he's really had to make this move was the package that brought in Sabathia. Nobody wanted to trade pitching for Hardy or Hart and we haven't really had another trade chip since the team is still in the middle of rebuilding. I don't disagree with you that the problem is with the pitching, I just think your expectations of how to acquire that pitching are off.

That's fine, but how about offering a different solution? We clearly didn't develop enough impact pitching. We clearly have never had enough impact pitching at MLB., Finally, we clearly are not able to compete with the big boys for impact pitching in FA. So since we didn't start with enough, have only developed Yo, and aren't able to buy impact pitching, how do we acquire said pitching if not through trades?

 

If you agree that trading is the answer, then the question becomes what are you willing to give up for that pitching? I've been willing to trade anyone not named Ryan Braun for that

pitching because I believe cost controlled impact pitching is that

important. If I recall you've never been in favor of trading Fielder until right before FA, you didn't want to trade Hardy, you think Melvin got good value for O and Carlos Lee, and I don't recall your opinion renting Sabathia or trading Hart when Atlanta and San Fran were rumored to be sniffing around.

 

The problem as I see it is that this issue should have been addressed at least twice since 2005, but now Melvin has backed himself into such a corner that he's dealing from a position of extreme weakness. His best hope is that a couple of teams get into a bidding war for Fielder (if he's even willing to trade him), if that doesn't happen my gut feeling is that we're pretty much screwed hoping for our young pitching to pan out wonderfully.

[Tbadder]

The problem here is that just about everybody's right including Macha. Look, you don't think that Macha knows he has no pitching. I might not like him but he's not stupid. There's about a trillion number 5 starters on this team if you include Joe Inglett and why not include Joe Inglett at this point. What he's trying to do with pitching is exactly what most managers do with hitters, look to see if he can exploit a platoon situation. Traditionally baseball doesn't handle pitching staffs this way and that's going to rattle some people. Bush, who is the new Corey Hart, (pay me millions upon millions next year) is upset because it could cost him a lot of money. Well,maybe instead of complaining he should act like a #3 pitcher instead of Jeff Suppan or Joe Inglett given the chance.

 

 

Eric Arnett--there I said it. This is the reason the Crew is doomed to mediocrity. We are wholly incapable of producing starting pitching that is meaningful. They need to go out and find a guy who can actually recognize young talented pitchers and sign him to lots of money--whatever it takes, a guy with a track record.

[Invader3K]

"We clearly didn't develop enough IMPACT PITCHING. We clearly have never

had enough IMPACT PITCHING at MLB., Finally, we clearly are not able

to compete with the big boys for IMPACT PITCHING in FA. So since we

didn't start with enough, have only developed Yo, and aren't able to buy IMPACT PITCHING, how do we acquire said pitching if not through trades?"

 

There, fixed that for ya.

 

In all seriousness, the solution is staring Melvin right in the face. Trade Fielder, Hart, and anyone else not named Braun or Gallardo, and get some starting pitching. They may not be the +++ high upside surefire pitching prospects people are dreaming about, but some decent young pitching under control for multiple seasons is better than the virtually none we have at the MLB level right now.

 

I just don't know if Melvin and Attanasio have the collective cojones to throw in the towel on the season. Melvin remarked that "they need another look at Parra," which is why he's getting the start this weekend. That is fine, but it's not like Parra hasn't had his chances before. If our pitching situation is that grim that you are just reshuffling the same deck in your MLB rotation, doesn't that say it's time to go to Plan B and think outside the box a bit? We are going to be taking on a 1st place club this weekend. The Brewers could easily be in 6th place by the end of the weekend. It's time to quit with this mirage of competitiveness for the season and start planning for the future.

[TheCrew07]

lol apparently I'm never going to live that moment of frustration down *sigh*

[sheethead]

Eric Arnett--there I said it. This is the reason the Crew is doomed to mediocrity. We are wholly incapable of producing starting pitching that is meaningful. They need to go out and find a guy who can actually recognize young talented pitchers and sign him to lots of money--whatever it takes, a guy with a track record.

 

I don't want to throw this thread completely off topic, but I listened to Bruce Seid on WSSP this morning and started thinking how this team is doomed. Hyping guys like Arnett and Heckathorn as pieces to a Championship caliber rotation does not give me much confidence in this guy, nor did his overall interview. Just didn't come across as being any more than a scout in Director's clothing.

[TooLiveBrew]

Eric Arnett--there I said it. This is the reason the Crew is doomed to

mediocrity.

 

I just lost a long(ish) response to this, so suffice it to say I think this is incredibly misguided & over-the-top. Arnett is absolutely not a sign of anything, nor is the Brewers' system in trouble in terms of pitching. It's not one of the best systems in the game in terms of arms, but to make such a blanket statement like this is just not accurate. To anyone that feels this comment above is true, I'll just say familiarize yourself with the pitchers in the system before saying something like this.

 

As for Bush, I guess I get where he's coming from, but come on Dave. He has to know he's not the same pitcher anymore. I'm positive that Ken Macha is sicker than any of us of watching soft tossers either get lit up or dinked & dunked to death (usually with the help of some crappy defense). I'm really glad he's getting Parra back on the hill to see if he can be an asset as a starter. To be honest I could care less which of the soft tossers are bumped from the rotation to facilitate that. You say it's going to be Bush? Fine by me.

[MJLiverock]

I had been hearing talk about putting Parra in against the Cardinals for a few days on the radion before this. Without having looked at the stats I seem to recall St. Louis doing worse vs. LH pitching, I know my Cardinal fan friend mentions it once in awhile.

 

It isn't like Bush has been all that great, the Brewers need to see if Parra has any future in the rotation even if just because they so desperately need him to. If the match up is Macha's reasoning, so be it, they need to look for any advantage they can manage at this point. Macha knows he needs to win.

[sheethead]

To be honest I could care less which of the soft tossers are bumped from the rotation to facilitate that. You say it's going to be Bush? Fine by me.

 

I agree. I don't see how Bush has the right to be upset about anything. He's a piece to one of the worst pitching staff's in baseball, and as Macha put it, if you want pitch, step up.

 

The only thing the Brewers owe Dave Bush is $4.215M.

[chadomac]

"In all seriousness, the solution is staring Melvin right in the face. Trade Fielder, Hart, and anyone else not named Braun or Gallardo, and get some starting pitching. They may not be the +++ high upside surefire pitching prospects people are dreaming about, but some decent young pitching under control for multiple seasons is better than the virtually none we have at the MLB level right now.

 

We are going to be taking on a 1st place club this weekend. The Brewers could easily be in 6th place by the end of the weekend. It's time to quit with this mirage of competitiveness for the season and start planning for the future."

I agree. We STILL have a cheap young core of players with a lot of potential (Lucroy, Escobar, McGehee, Gamel, Gomez, Cain, Stetter, Braddock, etc).

 

I think if you trade the guys that are about to get expensive and are playing decently (Fielder, Hart, Villanueva, Coffey, Parra), you should be able to net some quality AAA pitching that can contribute starting next year.

 

[naivin]

I think if you trade the guys that are about to get expensive and are playing decently (Fielder, Hart, Villanueva, Coffey, Parra), you should be able to net some quality AAA pitching that can contribute starting next year.

Boy looking at that list, I would say with the exception of Fielder, all of those guys are both pretty easily replaceable, and should have decent value for a contender looking for a RH bat, or bullpen help. Can they net quality near MLB ready pitching? Maybe. I assume you'd have to send a couple of those guys to the same team to get a soon-to-be MLB SP in return.

[TooLiveBrew]

Frankly, if possible, I'd rather see the Brewers go after better pitchers that are in high A or AA ball. I really don't want to see another string of high-80s velocity guys come up.

[Boisebrewer]

Frankly, if possible, I'd rather see the Brewers go after better pitchers that are in high A or AA ball. I really don't want to see another string of high-80s velocity guys come up.

I just typed a long response saying pretty much the same thing. I would much rather have some Heckthorns and Arnetts that will take a few years to develop than any more Estradas, Loes, or Lofgrens. No offense to those guys as they have helped us a bunch this year, but we shouldn't be building around them.