Isn't Escobar supposed to be good with the leather?

[brewmann04]

i am sorry but Escobar needs to go down to 3a and bring up a well deservin Cruz

[RockCoCougars]

So let me get this straight. Hardy's play last year was deserving of a demotion, but Escobar's poor play in the field, at bat and on the base paths has not. Nice double standard. We were definitely spoiled by Hardy's defense at shortstop. This is Exhibit E6 (pun intended) as to why you cannot count on prospects.

[benji]

So let me get this straight. Hardy's play last year was deserving of a demotion, but Escobar's poor play in the field, at bat and on the base paths has not. Nice double standard. We were definitely spoiled by Hardy's defense at shortstop. This is Exhibit E6 (pun intended) as to why you cannot count on prospects.

Lets not forget that salary probably had a major role in this decision as well.

[brewmann04]

escobar has played poor in the Field as being touted a great fielder and his Hitting is not up to par,and add his poor decesions on the base paths signal he not prepared. I agree 100% with Mass hass

[rluzinski]

I don't really understand what message you are sending Escobar by sending him down. Try harder? He's already burned a year of service. Let him work through his struggles and hope the practice helps for next year.

[giffted1]

If we were within a few games of first, I'd explore some other options at SS. Seeing we are nowhere near being in contention, Milwaukee is just as good a place as any to work on his defense.

[MJLiverock]

It isn't like Hardy didn't struggle to hit .230 his rookie season. I remember sitting at MP watching Hardy let 2 easy grounders go right under his glove like a little leaguer and thinking I thought his glove was supposed to make up for his bat. Rookies struggle. Escobar isn't the reason the Brewers aren't a playoff team. This revisionist history of Hardy's past, worth to other teams, and performance this year is just not productive or even relevent to the team's struggles. The undercurrent of animosity toward Escobar ever since his call up last year and over valuing/lamenting Hardy has just gotten old in my opinion.

[logan82]

I remember sitting at MP watching Hardy let 2 easy grounders go right

under his glove like a little leaguer and thinking I thought his glove

was supposed to make up for his bat.

This is why we use stats to quantify things. Hardy had an above average year on defense as a rookie. Hardy had a 1.7 WAR in 124 games as a rookie. Escobar is at 0.3 in 76 games. Hardy this year, even though he was hitting poorly, is at least canceling out his crappy offense with his glove. Escobar isn't.

[Fatter than Joey]

Escobar is canceling out wins.

[RockCoCougars]

It isn't like Hardy didn't struggle to hit .230 his rookie season. I remember sitting at MP watching Hardy let 2 easy grounders go right under his glove like a little leaguer and thinking I thought his glove was supposed to make up for his bat. Rookies struggle. Escobar isn't the reason the Brewers aren't a playoff team. This revisionist history of Hardy's past, worth to other teams, and performance this year is just not productive or even relevent to the team's struggles. The undercurrent of animosity toward Escobar ever since his call up last year and over valuing/lamenting Hardy has just gotten old in my opinion.

It isn't revisionist history on my part. I called the Brewers out for their dirty pool in sending Hardy down the day it happened, and I'll continue to do so. I don't care what anyone says, Hardy was well above average in the field and for a shortstop, his offense was above average as well, last year notwithstanding. If anyone is overvalued in my opinion, it is Escobar. Watching him play, I have a feeling we are looking at a Royce Clayton type player if we are lucky- not the Brewer's version, but a Royce Clayton in his prime (the guy the Cards pushed Ozzie Smith out for). I'm not sure if Escobar will ever develop into more than a slap type hitter. To this point in his career, he's averaging a homer about every 140 plate appearances, and an extra base hit about once every 20 AB. Before everyone uses the 'growing pains' excuse, keep in mind that Escobar is going to be 24 years old later this year. Hardy was an All-Star at 24.

 

Now I'm not saying that Escobar should be given up on- but to this point, his performance has been very disappointing. He's also been committing far too many mental mistakes out there. I'm not quite ready to send him to Nashville, but I'm getting there.

[uwisfan]

Hardy was damaged goods.. that ship has sailed & good riddance. Cruz has earned a shot at the majors, and Escobar might need a mental break in AAA. But long term, I still want Escobar as the SS unless Cruz blows up.

[logan82]

I don't like the Luis Cruz idea at all. Luis Cruz is having a carer minor league year with a .325/.435/.761 line in AAA at the age of 26 and a career AAA line of .297/.408/.704.(that's OBP/SLG/OPS) When he was signed and even up until about a month ago, he was the last guy on the 40-man roster. This call him up idea is quite the change over 3 months.

 

If we could gain a year of service time by calling up Cruz I might be in favor of it since Escobar doesn't have a good year at the MLB level under his belt.(unlike Hardy a little over a year ago) He might as well stay at the MLB level.

 

His minor league numbers almost make Gomez look good.

[pebadger]

Everybody is pointing out the error that squelched the double play chance today, and rightly so, but one of the recorded hits in that inning prior to the error was a ball that a decent shortstop has to make a play on as well. As of right now, Escobar is nowhere near what Hardy brought to the team. They may post similar numbers in terms of avg and obp, but Hardy has more pop in his bat. And JJ's defense was simply an entire tier above what Escobar is bringing. I forget if it was BA or Daron Sutton who used the phrase "He turns outs into outs" with JJ. Nobody will be using that with Escobar any time soon.

[logan82]

I forget if it was BA or Daron Sutton who used the phrase "He turns outs into outs" with JJ. Nobody will be using that with Escobar any time soon.

Mike Maddux I believe.

[pebadger]

I think you are correct, logan. And one of the broadcasters passed that on to us fans. Thanks.

[brewmann04]

I don't think anyone giving up on Escobar just saying he can use a little break while giving Cruz a deserved bump.

[MJLiverock]

logan3825]

I remember sitting at MP watching Hardy let 2 easy grounders go right under his glove like a little leaguer and thinking I thought his glove was supposed to make up for his bat.

This is why we use stats to quantify things. Hardy had an above average year on defense as a rookie. Hardy had a 1.7 WAR in 124 games as a rookie. Escobar is at 0.3 in 76 games. Hardy this year, even though he was hitting poorly, is at least canceling out his crappy offense with his glove. Escobar isn't.

I'll freely admit Escobar has struggled, as I said earlier rookies struggle. Even the vaunted JJ Hardy had mental lapses, couldn't hit, made baserunning gaffes, etc. during his rookie year. Point is the Brewers are going nowhere this season and not letting rookies play who have to be part of the future if this team is going to succeed, is just going to leave questions on them in the future.

 

WAR is a very flawed stat anyway since the defensive metrics are overvalued and so badly inconsistent that I don't put a whole lot of faith in them, especially when the talking about the values around 0-1. Escobar has struggled but the point is most rookies do. But if you want to use WAR, Hardy is at 0.7 vs. Escobar at 0.3, hardly worth noting a difference.

 

For sometime I actually thought you must be JJ's brother Logan, the way you and a couple other posters have defended JJ and lambasted Escobar. I liked JJ when he played here but he is gone and this isn't going to be unusual for the Brewers, trading expensive players when replacements are waiting.

 

I look at it this way, if JJ was such a great deal why was the only return on him Carlos Gomez? He gets paid $5.1MM vs. Escobar's $0.4MM, whether Melvin spent that money wisely is another discussion. JJ has only played in 39 games this season so his defensive contribution is missed in nearly half the games anyway, in addition to not hitting at all. If you want to look at the Value Stats (which are greatly flawed as well) Hardy has a value of $2.8MM this year while getting paid $5.1MM. Escobar is at $1.1MM while getting paid $400M. Neither are setting the world on fire but again showing Hardy isn't doing anything the makes me miss him. Hardy or Escobar at SS and the Brewer record is no different this year, especially since Escobar would have to cover nearly half the games anyway.

 

The Brewers have to rely on youngsters at times and the growing pains with them. If Escobar looks like this in 2 years I would be disappointed another prospect flamed out or failed to live up to the hype. What will happen when guys like Gamel and Lawrie or Cain come up and struggle? Unless they are the next Pujols it will happen.

 

[joepepsi]

Just play Counsell at ss a couple times a week, and let Escobar play out the season as the regular ss. It's the only way he'll improve.

[Invader3K]

Just play Counsell at ss a couple times a week, and let Escobar play out the season as the regular ss. It's the only way he'll improve.

I agree.

 

I guess I sort of find the calls for bringing up Luis Cruz somewhat laughable. I remember during Spring Training, a lot of posters on this board were questioning why he was even on the 40-man roster. The guy might be having a nice season in AAA (not a great one: .287/.330/.438/.768), but he is just there for backup insurance, nothing more. He's already 26, too. If the organization thought he'd be something, he would have been up with the Brewers already.

[endaround]

This has nothing to do with Cruz and everything to do with Escobar. Basically all Cruz has shown is putting him in won't be any worse than Escoabr and liekyl somewhat better if he's platooned with Counsell. The big issue is to get Escobar right somehow.

[The Truth]

Escobar will be just fine. He's making some rookie mistakes, but has also made some spectacular defensive plays

 

I'm more concerned about his bat. His OPS right now is brutal, even worse than JJ Hardy's was in his rookie season. Batting him in the 8 slot isn't helping

[MJLiverock]

Escobar will be just fine. He's making some rookie mistakes, but has also made some spectacular defensive plays

 

I'm more concerned about his bat. His OPS right now is brutal, even worse than JJ Hardy's was in his rookie season. Batting him in the 8 slot isn't helping

FWIW, Hardy's OPS was .560 before the all star break his rookie year.

 

I'm just willing to give Escobar some time since there really aren't any better options, the team is out of it, and he is part of the future.

[logan82]

But if you want to use WAR, Hardy is at 0.7 vs. Escobar at 0.3, hardly worth noting a difference.

 

That is a huge difference because you also have to take games played into consideration when looking at WAR. Escobar has played twice as many games. Hardy over the same number of games would be worth a win more than Escobar. Call out WAR and defensive metrics all you like, they are still miles better than individual observations of most fans.

 

Other than the injury which you just can't predict, Hardy is still currently the better player. Next year and the year after, Escobar could very well be the better player. That has always been my argument. At what point is Escobar the better player. In 2009 Hardy had a bad year but going into 2009 I think most people would have preferred Hardy at SS. Escobar had only one good hitting year at that point and that was at AA. My opinion has always been that Escobar wasn't ready and we had already had a good SS. Since Escobar wasn't called up till late in 2009, we will have control of him until the end of the 2015 season when he should be a pretty good player.

[JJHardy7]

I don't really understand what message you are sending Escobar by sending him down. Try harder? He's already burned a year of service. Let him work through his struggles and hope the practice helps for next year.

 

Exactly. I've stated my case before regarding Escobar. I think he'll be fine. I don't get why all of a sudden people want JJ back or whatever else. What would JJ have brought back at the time we traded him? What else was on the table? My guess is that it wasn't much. We can't act like some amazing deal was on the table. Gomez still has the tools to put it together...will he? Who knows. That is a different thread, but my guess is that this trade was more of a 'change of scenery' type of deal and so far it looks like it wasn't a great trade either way. Gomez is younger and still has time. We can hope.

 

I don't get the wrath with Escobar in a way. This team isn't going anywhere this year. If you want to blame a few losses on him, fine. I didn't get to see the game yesterday since I was up north, but it was 1-1 at the time of the error, right? We got behind because of him. The game tonight showed some great stats as to why this team struggles...it is hitting. In the ideal world, you don't have as many holes in the lineup/inconsistent players. That is a problem. I will agree that our defense isn't that great either, but you need pitching, hitting, and fielding. Escobar is never going to be a 30+ HR guy. I still believe he could be a 20 HR type guy. It will be a learning process though.

 

I get the service time issue though. He's not playing as well as I would like, but at the same time we've been beyond spoiled when we've called up some of our position players and Gallardo. That just isn't realistic for every player. Escobar has every tool to be a stud SS...he just needs to put it together.

[rluzinski]

We got behind because of him. The game tonight showed some great stats as to why this team struggles...it is hitting.

 

I think the real problem is all those home runs. Jeepers.

 

Whatever stats they showed you were misleading, to say the least. Baseball fans will forever complain about an inconsistent offense but there's no such thing as an offense that scores 5 runs every game. They are a myth. It should be obvious what they problems are with this team. Their hitting is probably the only thing that's been good.