Isn't Escobar supposed to be good with the leather?

[logan82]

Is there much adjustment on the defensive side when moving from the minors to the majors?

[Ennder]

I'll admit I was wrong on how good he would be defensively this season. I don't really buy the young excuse as much as some others simply because he was sold to us as a phenom defender not a work in progress. I know I shouldn't buy into they hype but this regime didn't sell us crap as chocolate like Bando did so I believed. Either Malvin and company were wrong as well or they are starting to over hype the prospects which I do not approve of.

 

His defense has been touted by all of the big prospect guys not just the Brewers organization. Not sure why you think young players don't need time to adjust on defense.

[jjfanec]

I'll admit I was wrong on how good he would be defensively this season. I don't really buy the young excuse as much as some others simply because he was sold to us as a phenom defender not a work in progress. I know I shouldn't buy into they hype but this regime didn't sell us crap as chocolate like Bando did so I believed. Either Malvin and company were wrong as well or they are starting to over hype the prospects which I do not approve of.

 

His defense has been touted by all of the big prospect guys not just the Brewers organization. Not sure why you think young players don't need time to adjust on defense.

Wasn't Starlin Castro supposed to be great with the leather? He has struggled as well. I never thought about guys having to adjust defensively but it does seem to be the case for these two.

[Ennder]

Young players need to adjust to everything, base running, fielding, hitting, fundamentals. Everything is a little faster, most of the players are new to them and they can only concentrate on so many things at one time. I wouldn't draw many conclusions about any aspect of a players game from their rookie year.

[pitchleague]

yeah, the game is just so much faster at the majors compared to even AAA. I'm not surprised in the slightest that Escobar and Castro have struggled in their first year of regular MLB work. Plus, they need time to learn the subtle nuances of each individual infield surface and time to learn an infield camaraderie with his third, first and, especially, second baseman.

[Ennder]

There is a reason you hear people talk about young guys showing the poise of a veteran so much because it is a rare thing. Gallardo was a perfect example of someone who appeared in the majors more or less 'finished' compared to most pitchers. Braun offensively is the same thing. Look at Fielders offense and defense from his rookie year on etc. It is pretty rare to see someone who can handle the switch from the minors to the majors instantly in any aspect of the game. The same is generally true in switching levels in the minors as well, there is generally a small hit in production for at least part of a season before they get back to their normal production.

[logan82]

A small hit was expected o the offensive side. On the defensive side everything and I mean everything we heard said Escobar was a fantastic defender.

[Never Outhustled]

I remember taking alot of critism last year for saying Escobar has no business being gifted a spot in the majors this year. We'd have a better MLB team if Melvin would have listened to me and just signed a platoon partner for Counsel. At least then we wouldn't have wasted a year of service time on of Escobar. This is just another misstep by Melvin. He's made the same mistake with Escobar he made with Hardy, he just never learns.

[Invader3K]

I remember taking alot of critism last year for saying Escobar has no business being gifted a spot in the majors this year.

I remember him looking pretty good last season after quite a few people said he wouldn't be able to hang with the MLB level of play. Wouldn't say he was gifted a spot at all.

[Never Outhustled]

Wouldn't say he was gifted a spot at all.

He sported a sub 800 OPS at AAA, and for that, he was given a starting spot in the Majors over a superior player, who had 2 years of control remaining, was traded for a throw-away caliber player. If thats not a gift, what is?

[Invader3K]

A "superior player" who was having a horrible year and was starting to show a bad attitude, and also isn't exactly lighting the world on fire this season. I absolutely think calling up Escobar and seeing what he could do at the MLB level was the correct decision.

 

Maybe the Hardy/Gomez trade was just throw-away for throw-away, but that's another entire discussion.

[TooLiveBrew]

The clearly superior J.J. Hardy of the .600 OPS this season? Yes, he's been hurt this year, but he's also stunk on ice for a season and a half now. To put this in perspective, Carlos Gomez -- a "throw-away caliber player" is out-producing J.J.

[Never Outhustled]

A "superior player" who was having a horrible year and was starting to show a bad attitude, and also isn't exactly lighting the world on fire this season. I absolutely think calling up Escobar and seeing what he could do at the MLB level was the correct decision.

 

Maybe the Hardy/Gomez trade was just throw-away for throw-away, but that's another entire discussion.

 

The clearly superior J.J. Hardy of the .600 OPS this season? Yes, he's been hurt this year, but he's also stunk on ice for a season and a half now. To put this in perspective, Carlos Gomez -- a "throw-away caliber player" is out-producing J.J.

 

Both statements are grossly untrue. Hardy , despite being out with injury for a good part of the season, is almost twice as many Wins Above Replacement as Gomez and Escobar combined.

 

Both are moot points, as my suggestion was to trade Hardy for a worthwhile player, and to find a platoon partner for Counsel.

[TooLiveBrew]

The only reason Gomez alone isn't outproducing JJ if you go by WAR is that Gomez's UZR/150 in CF this season is at -0.8 ... for a guy whose career rate there is a +14.0. Hardy has sucked this season, just like last year. I'll gladly suffer through a developmental season in the bigs with Escobar than watch Hardy's value plummet to the point where the Brewers couldn't have even gotten a player with upside like Gomez in return for him.

[Never Outhustled]

The only reason Gomez alone isn't outproducing JJ if you go by WAR is that Gomez's UZR/150 in CF this season is at -0.8 ... for a guy whose career rate there is a +14.0. Hardy has sucked this season, just like last year. I'll gladly suffer through a developmental season in the bigs with Escobar than watch Hardy's value plummet to the point where the Brewers couldn't have even gotten a player with upside like Gomez in return for him.

 

Hardy plays outstanding defense. No one on this team plays any defense at all.

[Thurston Fluff]

Both statements are grossly untrue. Hardy , despite being out with injury for a good part of the season, is almost twice as many Wins Above Replacement as Gomez and Escobar combined.

 

I think that says as much about WAR as it does Hardy, Gomez or Escobar. It uses defensive stats as a component yet defensive stats are not as reliable in same size samples as offensive one are.

 

As far as Escobar goes I'm not sure if I'm more disappointed in his defense or with the team touting him to be something he really wasn't. It isn't his errors that I am disappointed with as much as the lack of great plays. Perhaps I'm off base but I don't really buy into the learning curve argument in the bigs when it comes to defense. The fields are in better condition in the majors so his chances should be less adventuresome from bad hops and other such field related situations. The balls he's committed errors on weren't lasers he just missed so I can't see how harder hit balls play into it. The pitchers should be more accomplished at hitting their spots in the majors so he should have a better idea of where the hit balls go.

I guess in the more abstract sense learning how to be a big league player has something to do with it but all the other factors that should lead to better defense in the majors should mitigate that. Time will tell if he really is just young and learning or we were sold a false set of goods.

[DougJones43]

Perhaps I'm off base but I don't really buy into the learning curve argument in the bigs when it comes to defense. The fields are in better condition in the majors so his chances should be less adventuresome from bad hops and other such field related situations. The balls he's committed errors on weren't lasers he just missed so I can't see how harder hit balls play into it. The pitchers should be more accomplished at hitting their spots in the majors so he should have a better idea of where the hit balls go.

That's kind of how I have been viewing it. Obviously there is a different kind of a learning curve for hitting, because every level you move up you're facing tougher pitching. Same with pitching, as at every level you're facing tougher hitters. But defense should remain kind of a constant.

 

Besides, Escobar wasn't supposed to be a work-in-progress defensively, he was supposed to be major league ready. I haven't seen much out of him that makes me think he's going to be anything that special defensively. Certainly not a phenom. So far, he looks more like an above-average defender in the making.

[TooLiveBrew]

But defense should remain kind of a constant.

 

My guess is that big-leaguers consistently hit the ball harder than minor-leaguers. I'd have to think that would make defending more challenging.

[Mass Haas]

26-year-old Luis Cruz (stats) has made 13 errors as the everyday shortstop at AAA Nashville, posting a .761 OPS that is actually slugging heavy and rather "clutch" (.868 OPS with runners on -- 130 AB's).

 

Cruz is already on the 40-man roster; now I'm only tossing this out there as a very "far out there" thought -- but given Escobar's miscues mentally as of late in situational hitting and baserunning as well, could you send Escobar a message and simply swap the two players for a period of time? I doubt you could do so long enough for it to impact Escobar's future arbitration status, but you would be sending a message -- one that probably should have been sent to Carlos Gomez long ago, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

 

Like I said, it's "out there", but have at it...

[crewcrazy]

I think it's important to distinguish between Alcides having the ability to be a plus defender someday and being a plus defender now. He obviously isn't one now, and you could make an argument that he wasn't one in the minors (error numbers are even more hit-or-miss in the minors than they are in the majors, but let's not pretend high error totals are anything new with him).

 

When scouts talk about his defense, they're saying he has the potential to be something special with his glove due to his range and his arm, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily put it together yet. As we've seen, he's still struggling with putting it all together.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

Great suggestion MH. I'm on board. Get it done Doug. Escobar has been a massive weak spot for the Brewers this year

[DougJones43]

Another costly error today by Escobar, and he was picked off on the basepaths as well. Maybe it wouldn't be the worst idea to send him down for some seasoning, and let Counsell and somebody else platoon for awhile.

[Never Outhustled]

Count me in. Cruz has the same numbers as Escobar did last year when he was deamed "ready", but Cruz would only start versus LHP, with Counsel getting most of the starts.

 

 

And no, MassHaas, its not out there, your idea is completely logical, great call.

[pete]

I can't see Escobar becoming more ready by going to AAA.

[crewcrazy]

Yeah, he really isn't doing any worse than he did in the minors, and if the season is already a lost cause for the big league club, I don't know what could possibly be gained by sending Escobar down. He's going to need to learn how to play in the big leagues eventually.