Isn't Escobar supposed to be good with the leather?

[AdvantageSchneider]

Baseball prospectus said he was the best defensive shortstop in the minors. 9 errors and that doesn't count the play yesterday where he bobbled what should have been a sure double play ball and was only able to get the force at second.

I didn't think he would hit right away, and he hasn't, but I thought I would at least see decent defense out of him. We don't have the pitching staff to put another butcher in the field.

[derflotr]

Ozzie Smith in his prime couldn't help this pitching staff. Frustration thread.

[RightFieldCoder]

Robin Yount won 2 GGs (I know GGs don't mean good defense), but set a franchise record that still stands for errors his rookie year. I'll take growing pains now if he'll be good when we get a pitching staff.

[logan82]

Errors are a poor way to measure defense. Of course Escobar doesn't measure up well on either Dewan's plus/minus(0) or UZR either(-3.2 UZR/150). I guess he is about where I expected actually. About average. I didn't want to start this thread because I was waiting until much later in the season. We will see how good he is but I thin scouts were way to impressed with his potential instead of actually grading him on what he was. He definitely has the potential to be a fantastic defender if he can become consistent. When will he become consistent is really the big question.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Yount came up when he was 18. I'd be much more understanding if an 18 year old made a ton of errors. Escobar is 23. He should be a lot more seasoned, plus he has had 2 cups of coffee in the majors, so the jitters should have been mitigated somewhat.

 

I don't think I claimed errors are a great way to measure defense, but I thought the more advanced metrics need a full season or two to be conclusive. I would agree that his range doesn't seem to be spectacular yet. If he was getting to a million balls and making specatcular plays I'd cut him some slack on the errors. I haven't seen that yet.

 

The way he was sold to me was an offensive downgrade from Hardy, but a defensive upgrade. So far he appears to be a downgrade on both offense and defense.

[logan82]

I don't think I claimed errors are a great way to measure defense, but I thought the more advanced metrics need a full season or two to be conclusive. I would agree that his range doesn't seem to be spectacular yet. If he was getting to a million balls and making specatcular plays I'd cut him some slack on the errors. I haven't seen that yet.

 

3 years actually and you still need to regress it. He does have spectacular range. We saw it a few times last year. The difference is that the few extra balls he gets to that Hardy couldn't don't offset the balls both can get to that Hardy makes plays on that Escobar doesn't.

[dadofandrew]

There seems to be a lack of understanding of how bad the average SS is offensively, they average a sub 700 OPS. Alcides is average at 23 and has a world of potential, with his triples and bat speed. Errors are a horrible measure of Brewers, as they play half their games at MP where the base hits are errors nightly. His range is otherwordly, but he's been inconsistent, exactly what you would expect from a 23 year-old rookie.

[logan82]

There seems to be a lack of understanding of how bad the average SS is offensively, they average a sub 700 OPS.

 

No they don't. The average MLB SS last year put up a .328/.394/.721 line. Escobar is a substandard SS on both offense and defense at this point.

[RockCoCougars]

People were spoiled with Hardy's defense, and I never really understood the 'limited range' criticism. How soon we forget Jose Hernandez.

[dadofandrew]

BP shows 716 OPS in the NL, 677 AL thus far in '10. LY was 721 in both leagues.

[LouisEly]

The difference is that the few extra balls he gets to that Hardy couldn't don't offset the balls both can get to that Hardy makes plays on that Escobar doesn't.

 

Exactly. Personally I think range is overrated, and I would like to see an analysis of how many additional balls you get to a year that you can make a play on and get an out versus just stopping it from getting into the outfield and thus maybe preventing an extra base being taken if that. Particularly with this team, when the opponents are hitting rockets off of their bats from pitches thrown by Suppan, Davis, Estrada, Hoffman, Hawkins, etc., range doesn't really help that much.

[RobDeer 45]

I think the pitching has a good amount to do with his and everyone's def this year. When pitchers can't throw strikes it doesn't keep the defenders in the game. And if they are behind in the count and giving up rockets that won't help either. I expected growing pains with him and I'm confident that he'll come around and be pretty solid. But you all are correct, Hardy did not screw up. Maybe wasn't flashy but smooth. I think Escobar can be that way too.

[DougJones43]

There seems to be a lack of understanding of how bad the average SS is offensively

The original poster is questioning Escobar's defensive play so far. Nobody was really expecting him to hit right away, but we did expect very good defense.

 

So I think the only lack of understanding is on your part, in regards to what this thread is about.

[fondybrewfan]

It would also help if he had a 1st baseman that can actually pick a ball out of the dirt every once in a while. Or atleast be more than 5 foot nothing for those high throws that virtually every other 1st baseman in the league gets.

 

He hasn't been good as I thought he would be, but our error totals across the board would look a heck of a lot better even with a small upgrade at 1st

[Invader3K]

It would also help if he had a 1st baseman that can actually pick a ball out of the dirt every once in a while. Or atleast be more than 5 foot nothing for those high throws that virtually every other 1st baseman in the league gets.

I've been disappointed in Prince's defense so far this year. It seems like he's regressed since looking pretty good last season.

[monkeyman343434]

It would also help if he had a 1st baseman that can actually pick a ball out of the dirt every once in a while. Or atleast be more than 5 foot nothing for those high throws that virtually every other 1st baseman in the league gets.

 

He hasn't been good as I thought he would be, but our error totals across the board would look a heck of a lot better even with a small upgrade at 1st

I agree with everything here. All of the infielder's defense would drastically improve if the Brewers had at least an average 1b who was at least 6'2 to have a decent target to throw at, and was able to actually pick a ball like most major league 1b. I don't think I've ever seen such poor performances from a 1b of picking balls out of the dirt.

 

[joepepsi]

Hardy on May 31, 2005 was hitting .180/.283/.243. Hardy only made 10 errors his rookie season with a range factor of 3.76 per 9 innings. Escobar's number this season is 4.52.

 

I think it's safe to say Escobar is performing at least as well as Hardy did his rookie season. I think a little better so far. Hardy did improve drastically starting in July. Whether Escobar does the same is something to watch.

[Invader3K]

Escobar has the tools, he just needs to slow down sometimes. I think he sometimes rushes throws to first instead of taking time to square himself up better.

 

Really, I think it's just typical rookie struggles. He'll get better as he matures as a player.

[RobDeer 45]

Escobar has the tools, he just needs to slow down sometimes. I think he sometimes rushes throws to first instead of taking time to square himself up better.

 

Really, I think it's just typical rookie struggles. He'll get better as he matures as a player.

I totally agree. I don't get to see a lot of the games but listen to most. I have noticed though that instead of planting his feet on some balls he's charged he throws on the run (even though he had time) and made throwing errors. How many of his errors have been throwing and how many have been with the glove? Maybe I've just caught the throwing ones but I feel I've seen that more. I think we will all be amazed at how he settles in at short. No worries here.

 

[MJLiverock]

I can live with Escobar's growing pains at SS. He is still out hitting Hardy this year so far on both OBP and SLG and as was pointed out when Hardy first came up he was much worse than Escobar to this point. I also remember sitting at Miller Park and watching Hardy let two grounders go right between the legs like a little leaguer in one game early in his career, young guys will make mistakes especially if they have to watch 75+ pitches go for balls per game.

 

I don't know if every scoring decision is tough on him but yesterday's hit changed to an error seemed pretty tough. He made a nice play moving into the hole on Hanley Ramirez and stopped the ball, throwing off balance moving away from first and one hopped it to Fielder who dropped it. It was ruled a hit initially and later changed to an error, if anything I would have given the error to Fielder for dropping it.

[strawbossisevil]

This thread just shows why it's important to be patient with a prospect like Escobar. Rushing him up last season (as a certain poster continues to harp on) would not have been a wise move for the team, or for Escobar.

 

And for all the talk about Escobar being an offensive downgrade, to this point that hasn't been the truth:

 

At this point of the season:

 

Hardy: OPS .633 (last year's OPS .659)

Escobar: OPS .681 (last year's OPS .701)

 

Hardy's defense is currently at +2.7, so he has been slightly better in the field. But the difference hasn't really been that dramatic.

 

Let's not forget that Hardy is making 9 times as much as Escobar is this season.

[Thurston Fluff]

I'll admit I was wrong on how good he would be defensively this season. I don't really buy the young excuse as much as some others simply because he was sold to us as a phenom defender not a work in progress. I know I shouldn't buy into they hype but this regime didn't sell us crap as chocolate like Bando did so I believed. Either Malvin and company were wrong as well or they are starting to over hype the prospects which I do not approve of.

Dude has everything he needs to be great and we sometimes see it so I still beleive he can be a great, not just good, defender. Just wish I would have been told that by the team.

[Funketown]

FWIW (and I have no clue what it's worth), according to minorleaguesplits.com, Escobar was a +11 with Nashville last year (+18/150) and a +22 with Huntsville in 2008 (+24/150). I don't think it's fair to be annoyed with the organization for hyping Escobar's defense, as most of the hype I have heard has come from Baseball America and Baseball Prospectus.

 

I still think this guy is going to be an exceptional defender given the time. He the tools and the track record, and he has been pretty average in the field in his first 50 games (based on my own eyes and fielding metrics).

[TheCrew07]

He's been great fielding the ball for the most part, the problem has been his arm, he's makes some of the most awful throws I've seen this year when he's in a hurry.

[logan82]

BP shows 716 OPS in the NL, 677 AL thus far in '10. LY was 721 in both leagues.

 

He is close to the AL OPS but it is a relatively SLG heavy OPS.

 

Hardy only made 10 errors his rookie season with a range factor of 3.76 per 9 innings. Escobar's number this season is 4.52.

 

That is a really misleading stat. Escobar could be playing behind pitchers who put the ball in play more or more groundballs. Range factor is just putouts/innings at a defensive position.