So now what?

[GameMisconduct]

Can Gamel play 1st? That could be an option. Or, move McGeehee to 1st, throw Gamel in at 3rd get your pitching prospects out of Prince. See if some of our young pitchers can hang in the Bigs. At the same time that would free up some $$ to add a couple FAs to fill holes.

[FVBrewerFan]

I'm sure that's one of the options being discussed, probably option #1 if Prince is traded. Either could play 1B, both are challenged defensively at 3B so I'm not sure who would be moved to 1B. Probably McGehee is my guess.

[brewmann04]

you don't fire a manager if there no body to replace him,and think they need to settle on a rotation and go from there.

[DannoMac21]

you don't fire a manager if there no body to replace him,and think they need to settle on a rotation and go from there.

 

I'd take Willie Randolph at manager over Macha in a second.

[Thurston Fluff]

Further, while I fully support the move to DFA him, I don't have any ill will towards Suppan. It's not his fault he was offered the contract. He has never jaked an injury to just sit back and collect a paycheck. He tried his best, and that's all we can ask for out of any player. He was simply, well....bad. But by all accounts he is a good guy and a good teammate.

 

That is so perfectly stated I have a hard time adding. He was a good guy buy all accounts and did give his best effort. He simply wasn't good enough anymore. Thanks for your time here sorry it wasn't more rewarding for all of us. Good luck in all your future endeavors but glad you're not gonna clog up our roster anymore.

 

I agree Melvin doesn't suck, but sometimes change can be a stimulus for better things to come.

 

While I agree sometimes change for the sake of change can be good I think it is more relevant to players and coaches/managers than GM's. Change for changes sake can be beneficial in the sense it changes the environment. GM's are not part of the daily environment of the team like players and coaches are. Thus, to my way of thinking, change for changes sake is beneficial only when it changes coaches or players.

 

 

just saying if there were someone in the Dodgers front office (for example) that is expecially talented at identifying pitching talent, and has guys he can bring along who have proven they can develop pitching talent, that would be a GM candidate you would have to seriously consider.

 

I know you only used the Dodgers as an example but they have 4 guys on their staff that were drafted by them so it isn't like they've set the world on fire by drafting and developing these great pitching prospects. They have Kuo and Kuroda as FA's from Taiwan and Japan respectively and the rest came from other organizations. In comparison the Brewers have three of thier own. I do not beleive that is enough of a difference to make a change. The real difference between them and us is payroll and ball parks. Their park is better suited to pitching than ours and they can afford to take a chance and pay $15.4 million to a guy like Kuroda.

 

Maybe the thought is they can evaluate players already in baseball better than Doug. To that arguement I'd sayhe has found good pitchers over his time here as well. Just not in the last couple seasons. Even then I think Wolf will still end up a decent pitcher in the long run. Not to his contract perhaps but the Dodgers overpaid Kuroda as well. He's good but not $15 million good. They also gave up on Garland so it seems like they don't always get it right either.

 

From my perspective I think the evidence suggests the Dodgers evaluate pitchers little if any better than Doug. I thinks it has to do as much with the fact they can afford to take some chances and have a park that makes pitchers look better than they would be in a Brewers uniform.

[TheCrew07]

From my perspective I think the evidence suggests the Dodgers evaluate pitchers little if any better than Doug. I thinks it has to do as much with the fact they can afford to take some chances and have a park that makes pitchers look better than they would be in a Brewers uniform.

They've certainly had their flame outs, but they recently drafted and developed Billingsly and Kershaw, and traded away Edwin Jackson. The Brewers currently only have Gallardo that's preformed on par with any of those 3. The starting rotation here is all that matters, bull pen guys tend to float around.

 

Melvin does not draft players, he didn't do it when Jack Z was his SD, he's not doing it now with Seid. What Melvin has failed to do is address the rotation with any meaningful talent when then the farm system didn't produce it. His philosophy of "good enough" pitching has set the franchise back and his record in free agency is horrible. There are some pretty bad GMs around baseball that have some pretty good talent evaluators for Scouting Directors. For example Hendry has Tim Wilken who was very good in Toronto drafting Carpenter and Halladay, and as such the Cubs farm system isn't a joke anymore.

 

Melvin has his strong points to be certain, but he's proven to be a poor evaluator of pitching by any measure. With his focus on the position players he needs to be able to buy pitching in Free Agency, but in Milwaukee he's never going to have enough money to spend to make his philosophy work. While his philosophies are great for turning an organization around, he's simply better suited to be the GM of a larger market team where he will have more financial resources.

[FVBrewerFan]

Yea, I agree with that to a point. But, as we all know, the Brewers have had more than their fair share of injuries and other "issues" with top pitching prospects. Now perhaps that has something to do with how they're developed, but that's impossible to prove one way or another. That's why I wouldn't be so quick to pull the trigger on Melvin. He's certainly not a "bad" GM.

 

My point was that IF he is going to be replaced, it better be by someone who has proven the ability to identify pitching talent, and have guys to bring with him who have proven the ability to develop that talent. After all, that's really the only way this team can seriously contend. Maybe Melvin has the people in place to do that, I have no idea. I do know this team won't contend with a rotation of Gallardo, Wolf, and Davisbushnarvesonsuppanparracapuanoestrada. (I made that one word for a reason, all 4-5 type SP AT BEST) Heck, Wolf is barely a #3, and certainly wouldn't be on the true contenders this year.

 

Thing is, Melvin isn't stupid, he knows that. He was just hoping to have enough arms to keep them in games and hope the offense and bullpen could win enough games. I guess the question becomes how long does Melvin have to prove he can find and develop top line starting pitchers?

[Thurston Fluff]

My point was that IF he is going to be replaced, it better be by someone who has proven the ability to identify pitching talent, and have guys to bring with him who have proven the ability to develop that talent. After all, that's really the only way this team can seriously contend.

 

I agree if he would get replaced it would have to be for someone who has that knack. I disagree that it's the only way this team can seriously contend. Melvin has built a couple contenders in his time as GM in both Texas and Milwaukee that was built around offensive oriented teams. While the Milwaukee run was short lived it was still a couple years of contending baseball. More over I think this team is much closer to contention than it was prior to Melvin coming here. As you very well stated this team has YoGa as an legit ace, a decent #3 in Wolf (I'm going by his career stats not his limited ones this season) and a combination of guys who can be legit 4/5 guys. What we are missing is a quality #2. If we go back the the LA Dodgers comparison they have one more legitimate homegrown starter than we have so that is essentially the difference between good and bad. We have enough offensive talent to go out and get a legit #2 type pitcher. I think that happens this off season and next year will be better. St Louis rebuilt it's team from World series winner to contender in a very short period of time because it had always had a good farm system run by a good GM. Right now so does Milwaukee. I think our rebuild will be more like St Louis' was vs the 20 year type we are used to around here.

[FVBrewerFan]

Brewers contended in 2008 when they had Sabathia/Sheets/Gallardo down the stretch. That's the type of top line pitching you need to be a legit contender. There's always exceptions. Gallardo, a #2, and Wolf is not enough to get it done. Wolf is a legit #3 on a mediocre staff, but certainly wouldn't be the #3 on a legit contender. You really need a 1a, 1b, and 2 to make a run. Look in our own division. The Cards have that, and are in real good shape even though they can't score many runs. Reds are on their way to having that type of rotation.

 

i just don't believe Yo, a #2, and Wolf is enough to compete, unless they can score a ton of runs. And I don't think they are developing into that type of team.

[Thurston Fluff]

Wolf is a legit #3 on a mediocre staff, but certainly wouldn't be the #3 on a legit contender.

 

He was with #3 for the division winning Dodgers last season.

 

Brewers contended in 2008 when they had Sabathia/Sheets/Gallardo down the stretch. That's the type of top line pitching you need to be a legit contender.

 

They never had all three together at one time. They won down the stretch with CC but virtually nothing at all from sheets or YoGa. In fact they got more help in the last couple months from Bush and Suppan than they did Sheets or YoGa. Without Bush and Soup in August they wouldn't have made it to the playoffs.

While I agree with the basic premise that good pitching is a great thing to have for a sustained run I disagree that it takes great pitching to be a legitimate contender. There are just too many examples of contending teams who didn't have top flight pitching to make me beleive it can't be done. The Cards for example had Suppan as a major contributor to their WS run.

[logan82]

and there are playoff teams with crappy pitching all the time. Teams even win the world series with average pitching. The important thing is to have a good differential in run scoring and run prevention. I am sure the Cardinals in 2006 are not typical but to make statements like "Wolf is a legit #3 on a mediocre staff, but certainly wouldn't be the #3 on a legit contender" is wrong. Bush and Davis pitching like they have in their careers and not having bad years would have put us close to the top of the division and potentially in playoff contention. They have been pretty poor this year and our record reflects that.

 

ERA of Cardinals World Series starters in 2006

Reyes 5.06

Weaver 5.18

Carpenter 3.09

Wainwright 3.12

[TheCrew07]

I don't think it can be overstated enough so I'm going to do it again.

 

Cincy is a year away from a rotation of Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, and Chapman. Yikes.

St Louis already has Carpenter and Wainwright, Garcia is up already. Carpenter is old so who knows how long he'll be able to maintain but they always seem to field a competitive rotation regardless.

Chicago has a veteran pitching staff that is better now and legit prospects from AAA through A+. Cashner, Jackson, Carpenter, and Dolis.

Pittsburgh has Lincoln in AAA, Alderson in AA (depending on what you believe about his recent struggles) and just drafted the 2 best HS arms in the draft in Taillon and Allie. Pittsburgh isn't an immediate threat, but in 3-4 years they could be very formidable.

 

We have Yo at MLB and I'm still holding out hope for Parra. Between AAA and A+ we currently Rivas and Rogers preforming well in AA, Butler has started slow following rehab, Peralta has been uneven, Scarpetta has been poor, and Fiers has pitched well.

 

To compete from in house next year we will need Parra, Rogers, and Rivas to maximize their potential immediately. Peralta and Scarpetta are farther away than I would have hoped, and Bulter/Fiers could make nice back of the rotation starters. Jeffress was activated today and assigned to WI and the T-Rats also have Odorizzi and Heckathorn performing very well.

 

I'm most worried about the Cubs and Cincy long term at this time, but I won't count out the Cards and Pittsburgh's new regime is also on the right track. Houston's Scouting Director used to be in Milwaukee under Jack Z. He's done a nice job adding talent to their system as well. Without adding talent I don't see how we aren't the 4th best rotation again next season, and looking beyond it's going to be a dog fight pitching wise to be at the top of the division.

[logan82]

We don't need to be the best in the division. We just need to be above average. I agree that we need Parra to pitch to his potential and one other guy to come up through our system for us to have a decent rotation next year. Gallardo, Parra(pitching to potential), Wolf, minor league guy(Butler would be my guess) and Narveson wouldn't be a terrible rotation. I think we have a better chance to have a good rotation in 2012 provided we get a decent guy in trade for Fielder.

[brewmann04]

hey RW23 did you see how Willie lost the team here in NY when he was the Man Sorry no thanks

[homer]

Cincy is a year away from a rotation of Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, and Chapman. Yikes.

Dusty is still their manager.....I remember thinking Wood and Prior were going to dominate the NL Central for a decade.

[benji]

Cincy is a year away from a rotation of Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, and Chapman. Yikes.

Volquez is coming off major surgery and a PED suspension. I wouldn't count on him yet. Bailey has not shown me enough to be scared of. Leake has pitched for a total of 2 months. Lets see how good they really are.

[TheCrew07]

and there are playoff teams with crappy pitching all the time. Teams even win the world series with average pitching.

 

ERA of Cardinals World Series starters in 2006

Reyes 5.06

Weaver 5.18

Carpenter 3.09

Wainwright 3.12

Nope that's not true at all, and you took the extreme best case scenario as proof of your "all the time" statement. They backed into the playoffs finishing 83-78, however they played excellent team defense all year and into the playoffs.

 

The rotation during the year was Carpenter (3.09), Marquis (6.02), Suppan (4.12), Mulder (7.14), Reyes (5.06), and Weaver (5.18). The rotation was obviously horrible but they played good enough defense and scored enough runs to get into the playoffs.

 

Once in the playoffs, the entire team had a 2.36, far and away the best pitching in the post season.

 

Carpenter started 5 games, 2.78 ERA

Weaver started 5 games, 2.43 ERA

Suppan started 4 games, 2.49 ERA

Reyes started 2 games, 3.0 ERA

 

In the bullpen:

Wainwright, Flores, and Kinney didn't give up a single run.

 

I don't see how it's reasonable to assume that any team will ever get 2 guys who are 4+ ERA pitchers to pitch at such a high level for 3 straight playoff series. It certainly can happen, but that's the extreme best case possible once every 50 years type thing, not the reasonable expectation of a playoff team.

[TheCrew07]

Cincy is a year away from a rotation of Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, and Chapman. Yikes.

Volquez is coming off major surgery and a PED suspension. I wouldn't count on him yet. Bailey has not shown me enough to be scared of. Leake has pitched for a total of 2 months. Lets see how good they really are.

I'll take a number #5 starter with Bailey's talent level 100 times out of 100.

[naivin]

and there are playoff teams with crappy pitching all the time. Teams even win the world series with average pitching.

 

ERA of Cardinals World Series starters in 2006

Reyes 5.06

Weaver 5.18

Carpenter 3.09

Wainwright 3.12

Nope that's not true at all, and you took the extreme best case scenario as proof of your "all the time" statement.

Not true at all? The statement was that teams make the playoffs all the time, not that they win the WS all the time. StL was an extreme example that pitched well during the playoffs, but they certainly didn't pitch well all season. If you need more examples, just look at last year where MIN, LAA, and BOS were all in the bottom half of the AL in pitching. I suspect if you look further you could find other examples as well. Is it the norm? No, but it is not an extreme exception either.

[logan82]

You skipped over the most important point of my post.

 

-The important thing is to have a good differential in run scoring and run prevention.

 

Having a very good rotation certainly helps but is not necessary.

[Thurston Fluff]

Cincy is a year away from a rotation of Volquez, Cueto, Bailey, Leake, and Chapman. Yikes.

St Louis already has Carpenter and Wainwright, Garcia is up already. Carpenter is old so who knows how long he'll be able to maintain but they always seem to field a competitive rotation regardless.

Chicago has a veteran pitching staff that is better now and legit prospects from AAA through A+. Cashner, Jackson, Carpenter, and Dolis.

Pittsburgh has Lincoln in AAA, Alderson in AA (depending on what you believe about his recent struggles) and just drafted the 2 best HS arms in the draft in Taillon and Allie. Pittsburgh isn't an immediate threat, but in 3-4 years they could be very formidable.

 

How many times do we see legit prospects flame out? Furthermore how many times do we ever see all the prospects pan out? Until they all have elite rotations in the majors they are all just what if scenarios. I certainly want better pitching and think it is on the way in the form of trades and better drafting. looking at the last two drafts they have spent more and, generally speaking, higher draft picks on pitching prospects than they ever did with Jack in charge.