So now what?

[RockCoCougars]

1. Fire Macha- He's not coming back next year anyway. Give Randolph his 'audition' this year. Chances are he will fail, so they can move on to a new pool of candidates.

2. DFA Suppan - The guy is a cancer, pure and simple, because he proves that performance does not matter. Cutting him will lift a pall from the clubhouse somewhat, not to mention opening a roster spot for someone more deserving.

3. Start Parra- I agree with the others. Get the guy 15-20 starts before the end of the year. Let him stink or swin. If he stinks, no one can say that he wasn't given his opportunity a la DeLaRosa.

4. Try to move any player over 30 years old. Most notably Wolf, hope that Hawkins comes back gamebusters and can be moved at the deadline as well.

5. Give Riske a few shots after he comes back. If he stinks, another DFA.

6. I'd like to see Gamel get his shot as well, but I'm not sure how that would work.

7. Hold Fielder until the offseason. Don't let Melvin make the trade.

[ecjimg]

They should try to come up with some ideas to better prepare the starting pitchers to be able to go out and be effective in the first inning.

[crossface21]

I don't know if I would classify Suppan as a cancer. Not playing well-yes. A cancer-no. I reserve the classification of a cancer as someone who tears apart team chemistry, is selfish, and is a complete jerk, ala Gary Sheffield for example. I'm as ready as the next guy to get rid of Suppan, but saying he's a cancer is a bit far. Who's fault is it that he's still on team? It's not his. If anyone of us was getting paid $12million a year to pitch, we'd take that money and run with it until they kicked us out as well. If you say you wouldn't, you're lying to yourself.

[LouisEly]

I don't think we've ever traded anyone (in the last 15 years) for a prospect the ended up being an above average player.

 

Just within that 15 year threshold, I'd say that Burnitz (acquired for Seitzer) was an above-average player, as was Richie Sexson (for Wickman et. al.) Lyle Overbay... maybe when you factor in defense he was slightly above average.

 

But to your point, those were some time ago, and those are very few examples.

[Invader3K]

Brewers are one game out of last place, and have a team ERA of around 5.35. Yeah, they better look at blowing things up soon. The status quo sure isn't working.

[WV Brew]

I think people are overrating the Brewers' offense. Both McGehee and Braun are among the highest players performing over projected OPS (see Sabernomics blog). They will (and are doing so) return to earth. Fielder might improve from what he is doing but it won't matter if he is traded. We have Gomez and Escobar hovering around .300 OBP not to mention the catcher. When you have that many unproductive at bats, you are asking for trouble.

 

There is no point in trading Prince if Melvin is going to "make the deal I liked". I'd prefer, frankly to take the draft choices than throw the dice on Melvin's judgement. Too many decisions are now being made concentrating on the short term. Frankly, we're one game out of last place in the NL and sinking fast. This season is history if things don't change quickly and it's hard to see how they will. There were people who post on this board who said before the hot stove league that they should essentially write off 2010 and now it appears that was the correct idea. Good call for those who said that.

[brewizard]

The real problem is that there IS nothing left to do.

 

The Brewers are a shell of the team they were two years ago. Melvin let the window open and shut without ever quite balancing the pitching to the hitting. There WAS one brief moment in there, but I'm personally thinking a whole new management team and another decade MIGHT bring us back to the one-and-done playoff team we were two years ago. But that is a BIG might.

 

I don't see any positives for the Brewers short or long term.

 

Here I am, Negative Nelly, totally vindicated for my predictions of gloom and doom. I am mad too. I didn't want to see it come to this.

[LouisEly]

I'd prefer, frankly to take the draft choices than throw the dice on Melvin's judgement.

So that the Yankees can sign Fielder and the one free agent ranked higher than him, and thus the Brewers get a sandwich pick and the Yankees second round pick?

 

I don't get the love for draft picks. If the Brewers let Fielder walk and take the draft picks, 1) it will be at least four years before the draft picks will have any impact on the team, and B) if they have any impact at all. IIRC, given the rules it is impossible for the Brewers to receive a pick in the top half of the first round for a comp pick; if a team in the top half of the first round signs a Type A free agent I don't believe they have to give up their first round pick - the team gets either two sandwich picks or a sandwich and that teams 2nd round pick. So looking back over the last decade, here are the Brewers first round, sandwich, and second round picks excluding players taken in the first 16 picks in the draft:

 

2000 - none

2001 - JJ Hardy (2nd)

2002 - Josh Murray (2nd)

2003 - TGJ (2nd)

2004 - Gallardo (2nd)

2005 - none

2006 - Brewer (2nd)

2007 - none

2008 - Odorizzi, Frederickson, Lintz, Dykstra, Adams

 

So as far as past draft picks where the comp picks would be, they have two busts (Murray, Brewer), three probable busts (Lintz, Adams, Frederickson), one suspect (Dykstra), one prospect (Odorizzi), two average major leaguers (Hardy, TGJ), and one star (Gallardo). Those are not good odds - the chances of getting a Gallardo or Odorizzi are less than the chances of getting a Brewer, Adams, or Frederickson. I think they can do better than that with a trade.

 

I'll leave out the 2009 class as it is too early to tell - Heckathorn looks good, Davis & Garfield look OK, Walla & Arnett look bad. Which statistically is what happens - you only get 3-4 major leaguers out of any draft.

 

I'd rather take my chances on a getting a return like the Cardinals did for JD Drew (Wainwright, Marquis, Ray King), or like what the Rangers got for Texeria (Saltalamacchia, Andrus, Feliz, Harrison - the Brewers don't need young catching or SS, so instead of Salty and Andrus they could get more pitching), then end up with another Brent Brewer and Cody Adams. And if they can't get good pitching in a trade, get good position players and then focus almost entirely on pitching in the draft like they did in 2004 and 2008.

[nate82]

I believe the return the Brewers are looking for for Fielder is not there right now. I don't see the Melvin being able to get what he would like in a trade for Fielder right now and I still believe Mark A is not going to allow Melvin to trade Prince until at least the off season which is probably the better move. I see Fielder's trade value being about the same as it is now if he gets traded during the deadline or the off season not much is going to change between the deadline and the off season. I don't see the Brewers getting 2 top 10 prospects from a team. The best the Brewers are going to get is something along the lines of a AAA starter someone who isn't a hard throwing pitcher, a AAAA positional player, and 2 A/AA high upside hard throwing starters with questionable control.

 

I believe that is what the return for Fielder will yield. I believe the Brewers will get more value in return for Hart than they will for Fielder during the deadline.

[monty57]

Well, for a couple of months of Matt Holliday, the Cardinals gave up possibly their top prospect in Brett Wallace (now somehow in Toronto's organization), a near-MLB-ready pitcher who the A's will have for six years in Clayton Mortensen (7-2 4.30 ERA, 49 K, 25 BB in AAA) and former second round pick with a penchant for getting on base CF Shane Peterson.

 

I don't think it's asking too much to think that a team would give up some of their top prospects for a year and a half of Fielder.

[Funketown]

Well, for a couple of months of Matt Holliday, the Cardinals gave up possibly their top prospect in Brett Wallace (now somehow in Toronto's organization), a near-MLB-ready pitcher who the A's will have for six years in Clayton Mortensen (7-2 4.30 ERA, 49 K, 25 BB in AAA) and former second round pick with a penchant for getting on base CF Shane Peterson.

Wallace went to Toronto for Michael Taylor this summer.

Mortensen might be nearly MLB ready, but I don't think his ceiling is much higher than a bottom of the rotation starter, although I could be wrong, as I'm not terribly familiar with him.

Don't know anything about Peterson, but his numbers look decent for his age.

 

That seemed like a pretty good haul for Holliday at the time, but my main worry is getting top-end pitching. If they could get a near-MLB pitcher with a ceiling of a 2nd and 3rd starter, a raw toolsy pitcher, and a lower end hitting prospect, I'd be happy. I just don't have a very good idea of what teams will be willing to give up for a guy who is due $11MM this year and likely around $15MM next year.

 

edit: typo

[monty57]

I was just trying to illustrate that every year teams give up prospects to get high-caliber MLB talent for the pennant race. We aren't going to get someone who's already in a rotation, but we could get some good talent in return for Fielder. The thought that we're only going to get AAAA fodder for someone who's been in the top three in MVP voting twice and still has 1.5 years of control is a little pessimistic.

[FVBrewerFan]

Where do we go from here?

 

1) Cut bait with anyone who will not/ should not be on the roster next year, and has no trade value.

Suppan

Davis

Hoffman

 

2) Try to trade others that don't fit criteria #1. These guys don't have much trade value, but you may get a little something in return.

Gerut

Edmunds

Bush

Counsell

 

3) Entertain serious offers for:

Weeks

Hart

McGehee (Sell high concept)

Fielder

Virtually anyone else not named Gallardo, Braun, or Escobar

 

4) Give Parra, Narveson, and Capuano plenty of starts to see who can be "counted on" for the rotation next year.

 

5) Figure out where Braddock, Axford and to a lessor extent Loe and Estrada fit into the pitching staff. (I may be forgetting someone.) Are they starters, relievers, or closer? Do you stretch out Braddock and put him in the rotation? Or is he the closer next year? Or does Axford stay in that role? Are Loe or Estrada a candidate for the rotation? These are all questions that need to be addressed in the next 4 months.

 

6) Fire Macha after the season, unless, of course, they make an amazing comeback. And there is still time for a miracle. But as things stand now, there SEEEMS to be a collective attitude problem (for lack of a better word.) Fire Melvin too? I don't think so, but if they replace him with someone who is arguably an improvment I'm fine with it.

 

7) At the end of the year, hopefully you have identified 2 starters to join Gallardo and Wolf in the 2011 rotation. Plus, a couple guys who could start if necessary. The mission then, as always, is to find a top of the rotation starter. Salary should be way down, especially if they deal Fielder. Could be the year they could spend the $ it takes to bring in a big arm, if they can't get one in a Fielder trade.

 

That's where I would start, no time at the moment to get into position players.

[Invader3K]

FVBrewerFan, I pretty much agree with your analysis. I just fear Melvin and Attanasio don't have the collective guts to start making moves soon. Attanasio probably fears gate returns declining this season, and Melvin has never been a big "sell off" guy, as evidenced by last season.

[FVBrewerFan]

You may be right, but I think they'll start by DFAing Suppan tomorrow. That would be actually seen as a positive by the fans. Attendance will be very strong through August, always is in Milwaukee. September may be hurt by a sell-off, but if they're not in contention attendance will be down anyhow. 2011 season ticket sales (incl partial) will be interesting.

[Thurston Fluff]

The only thing that should be on the agenda for Tuesday's meeting, since firing a manager and GM who have had the game of baseball pass them by is apparently not an option, should be, "What prospect(s) can we get for Player X?"

 

What does the game has passed him by even mean? Has the game changed so much in the past ten years that someone who has shown themselves to be very adapt at their jobs then somehow could not adjust to the nuances of today's game? Really since the 5 man rotation and the specialized bullpen came into play the game has been the same. It doesn't just pass you by when you are an active participant in it all the while.

 

DFA Suppan - The guy is a cancer, pure and simple, because he proves that performance does not matter. Cutting him will lift a pall from the clubhouse somewhat, not to mention opening a roster spot for someone more deserving.

 

while I agree with DFAing him he is not a cancer. From all accounts he is a nice guy and good teammate not a cancer at all. A cancer is a guy like Jeff Juden who was not only a bad player but a butthead for a teammate.

 

Fire Melvin too? I don't think so, but if they replace him with someone who is arguably an improvment I'm fine with it.

 

I would want someone who isn't arguably an improvement because that logically means they are arguably not one. Melvin is still the same guy who has been looked upon as a very astute GM around the league. If you look around the league the teams who remain competitive year in and year out, Boston, NY, Minnesota, Anaheim, St Louis, Atlanta are also the ones who keep their management in place even in tough times. Stability over change is usually the fastest way to improvement unless the current guy sucks. Melvin doesn't suck.

[RockCoCougars]

I stand by my assertion that Suppan is bad for the clubhouse. I'm sure many of the players resent him being around, because it's obvious at this point he's hurting the team and he's only in it for the paycheck. Why does everyone think Suppan is such a great guy? I'd like specific examples as to what he's done for the community ('buying tickets' doesn't count). He certainly has no roots here. As far as I know, not once has he been man enough to be a stand up guy to even address the fact that he's been stinking up the joint.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

Am I the only one surprised to see Macha still has a job today?

 

I mean, somebody has to be the fall guy and this team is treading downward.

[pretendastronaut]

I stand by my assertion that Suppan is bad for the clubhouse. I'm sure many of the players resent him being around, because it's obvious at this point he's hurting the team and he's only in it for the paycheck. Why does everyone think Suppan is such a great guy? I'd like specific examples as to what he's done for the community ('buying tickets' doesn't count). He certainly has no roots here. As far as I know, not once has he been man enough to be a stand up guy to even address the fact that he's been stinking up the joint.

 

 

 

"Clubhouse cancer" and "what has he done for the community" are two entirely different things, but all the same, Suppan has been pretty highly recognized for his contributions to charity throughout his career and his time with the Brewers. I specifically remember that both he and Gagne teamed up to donate a large portion of money to rebuilding little league parks in the Milwaukee area that were ruined due to flooding in the summer of 2008. Also throughout the 2008 season, the Brewers gave 4 seats each home game, to active Wisconsin military members and families of fallen soldiers. Suppan gave each of them $200 in vouchers for food and merchandise.

 

You may not like his results on the field, and you can't be blamed for that, but it's a bit insulting to assert he's a bad guy, when you have no idea of it, when it's well documented what a charitable guy he is.

[DannoMac21]

Can we just fire Macha already? This is absurd.

[FVBrewerFan]

Fire Melvin too? I don't think so, but if they replace him with someone who is arguably an improvment I'm fine with it.

 

I would want someone who isn't arguably an improvement because that logically means they are arguably not one. Melvin is still the same guy who has been looked upon as a very astute GM around the league. If you look around the league the teams who remain competitive year in and year out, Boston, NY, Minnesota, Anaheim, St Louis, Atlanta are also the ones who keep their management in place even in tough times. Stability over change is usually the fastest way to improvement unless the current guy sucks. Melvin doesn't suck.

I agree Melvin doesn't suck, but sometimes change can be a stimulus for better things to come. I used the word "arguably" better, because it's impossible to state outright that a new GM would be better. Only history would prove that one way or another. I'm in Melvin's corner, just saying if there were someone in the Dodgers front office (for example) that is expecially talented at identifying pitching talent, and has guys he can bring along who have proven they can develop pitching talent, that would be a GM candidate you would have to seriously consider.

 

 

 

 

[FVBrewerFan]

I stand by my assertion that Suppan is bad for the clubhouse. I'm sure many of the players resent him being around, because it's obvious at this point he's hurting the team and he's only in it for the paycheck. Why does everyone think Suppan is such a great guy? I'd like specific examples as to what he's done for the community ('buying tickets' doesn't count). He certainly has no roots here. As far as I know, not once has he been man enough to be a stand up guy to even address the fact that he's been stinking up the joint.

You can stand by it, as long as you realize this is your OPINION. I have not heard or read anything about any resentment towards Jeff Suppan in the clubhouse. Further, while I fully support the move to DFA him, I don't have any ill will towards Suppan. It's not his fault he was offered the contract. He has never jaked an injury to just sit back and collect a paycheck. He tried his best, and that's all we can ask for out of any player. He was simply, well....bad. But by all accounts he is a good guy and a good teammate.

 

The guy is gone, and should be. But why make it so personal?

 

 

[naivin]

FVBrewerFan, I pretty much agree with your analysis. I just fear Melvin and Attanasio don't have the collective guts to start making moves soon. Attanasio probably fears gate returns declining this season, and Melvin has never been a big "sell off" guy, as evidenced by last season.

Hopefully they have the collective math skills to do so...this season is already over, and the longer the pretend it isn't, the more the jeopardize next season and beyond. I understand the dilemma they find themselves in with Prince Fielder, but they have to do the math in that scenario as well and realize he is not going to be a Brewer beyond 2011. A year and a half of Pronce Fielder in most cases is going to be far more valuable to a team, than a half a year would be next year at this time (I don;t know what they haveto offer in return, but I think teh Angels would make an ideal trading partner). The White Sox have already made it known they are open for business, and a guy like Konerko will certainly soften the market for Prince this season. Lance berkman seems to be heating up, and should be available. I love Prince, and of course it all comes down to what you get in return, but I see very little to be gained by waiting.

[FVBrewerFan]

Well, two reasons waiting COULD pay off. First, Melvin believes better trades can be made during the hot stove league. I know he's not alone. Secondly, Prince isn't having a bad year, but he isn't tearing it up either. You could argue that his trade value could go up next year if he really starts pounding the ball out of the yard again.

 

Don't get me wrong, I would move him ASAP for the right deal. But if that "right deal" doesn't present itself in July, it won't necessarily mean that "right deal" won't present itself in the winter or next season.

[jhart05]

I would like to see them play Lucroy at least half the time or send him down and bring back Rivera to sit on the bench.

 

Don't mess around with him like they did with Gamel last year.