How much longer for Jeff Suppan? -- Latest: Suppan signs with STL, starts 6/15

[Invader3K]

In two years Wolf will be in the last year of his contract making "only" $9.5 million. Even if he ends up turning to crap, it shouldn't be crippling. He does have a club option for 2013, but with a $1.5 million buyout (less than Soup's buyout).

[DuWayne Steurer]

JohnBriggs12]

Yes seriously. I understand all the justifications (primarily that he earned his contract by what he did prior to signing it) he has for not quitting and he has every legal right to continue and that's what we expect in this "get it all while you can" culture.. But this is a guy who has very openly set a high standard for himself (for which I applaud him) and when you no longer possess the ability to "play baseball" to even the minimum level required of a major league player to continue to collect a paycheck for doing so is dishonest. That's my opinion.

I'm sorry, but this is downright ridiculous. By this standard, anyone performing below replacement level is "stealing" and "dishonest". Nonsense.

 

I also don't understand how it can be your "opinion" that he's stealing. Facts would indicate he's not. He's cashing checks for a pre-agreed upon amount, for services to be rendered. There was no agreement of a specific level of performance. To call that dishonest or stealing isn't an opinion, it's pretty much factually wrong.

[Bruce Ciskie]

RayKingsForemanGrill]The booing really bothers me. But I know nothing I say will change anyone's mind on that. I guess we all have different ideas of civility.

There are some who are directing their boos at Suppan. Others understand how the system works, and they're venting at Melvin and -- to a lesser extent -- Macha more than trying to make Suppan feel bad.

[dlk9s]

It was be irresponsible of Jeff Suppan in his role as a provider for his family to just not accept any more money because he wasn't playing. People who think he's stealing from the team or insist that he should quit and stop getting paid need to get off their high horses.

[jeffy]

In two years Wolf will be in the last year of his contract making "only" $9.5 million. Even if he ends up turning to crap, it shouldn't be crippling. He does have a club option for 2013, but with a $1.5 million buyout (less than Soup's buyout).

They also won't have Bill Hall or Risky on the books, this year the team is spending about $25 million for basically nothing.

[Beast Light]

When we still have guys like Estrada on the roster getting rid of Suppan isn't going to do much. The team needs to find a number of better options to make this worth worrying about.

I don't know what is worse, the fact that the Brewers gave this guy $40MM+ over 4 years or that at this point, they can't even go to the stable for a legitimate upgrade.

 

 

logan3825 wrote:

---

I would also like to point out that fans often times care about more than a win/loss record. If my team is losing but makings smart moves and trying to get better, I can tolerate that. If my team is losing and continues to trot guys like Suppan out to the mound and expects me to believe that they are making an honest effort to win, it makes me angry.

 

I really doubt a team making a move on a mop up guy is going to make any difference in attendance.

 

Was he pitching in mop up time when he gave up 4 runs to the Mets (second to last appearance)? Was he pitching in mop up time at the beginning of the season when every Brewer fan in the country apparently knew more than Brewers management and was already aware of the fact that he had no business pitching in a Major League rotation?

 

And what is mop up time anyways? Shouldn't the goal be that every pitcher on the team be able to contribute? If not, maybe we should just carry an extra bat on the bench and let someone like Counsell or Inglett pitch these meaningless innings.

[CheezWizHed]

Back to the original question....

 

I posted something similar to this in another thread about trading away an RP (based on current depth).

 

Starters:

1 Gallardo

2 Wolf

3 Bush

4 Capuano

5 Narveson

 

BP

1 Axford

2 Braddock

3 Hoffman

4 Coffey

5 Villanueva

6 Parra

7 Loe

8 Suppan/Estrada - assuming one is released to make room for Loe

 

DL

1 Hawkins

2 Riske - roster move required in 1 week. - Is on 60 day DL, so a 40 man spot needs to be opened.

3 Davis

 

AAA

1 Stetter

 

Seeing that one of Suppan/Estrada will be gone with Loe (my guess is Suppan at this point) and there are three more pitchers on the DL. Suppan can't last much longer. Even if we DFA Suppan &Estrada & Loe, we still need to make room for one more pitcher. And that is leaving Stetter in AAA....

[1992casey]

I cannot believe that Suppan still has apologists on this board.

 

It's really much more productive to address the message rather than attack the messenger. Even aside from that, I don't see any "apologists." Everyone is acknowledging that this is a bad situation.

[RockCoCougars]

Beast Light wrote:

If not, maybe we should just carry an extra bat on the bench and let someone like Counsell or Inglett pitch these meaningless innings.

 

I'm not even joking here- I think that Bill Hall could pitch better at this point than Suppan. He certainly throws harder, and from what I saw, had more movement on his pitches as well. If he was allowed to throw his curve, I don't think that it would be hard for him to outpitch Suppan.

[sheethead]

I do see a lot of "what better options are there" comments. Any decent pitcher on the farm is a better option. Excuses have run out on Melvin.

 

People who think he's stealing from the team or insist that he

should quit and stop getting paid need to get off their high horses.

 

 

 

Who doesn't love something for nothing? I would take it in a heartbeat if someone was stupid enough to give it to me.

 

They also won't have Bill Hall or Risky on the books, this year the

team is spending about $25 million for basically nothing.

 

 

 

Or Doug Davis, Gregg Zaun, Trevor Hoffman, and Dave Bush. Is this over half of the payroll yet? It's about $46 million I think, for basically nothing.

[WestSideWillie]

Jeff Suppan is just an example of the Milwaukee market. Doug Melvin has to over pay to get a free agent to even sniff coming to Milwaukee.

Soup was the best he could do at the price. If anyone thinks CC or Cliff Lee would/will sign for the "going rate" to stay or come to Milwaukee

you're dreaming. Sorry fans, it is a fact of life. In fact Dave Bush could be getting Soup money for next season. Also, where is the chatter about the pitching coach? At least Bill Castro got more out of Hoffman and Suppan than Peterson. Amazing but true. Nary a word. Sign Prince Now.

 

 

[nate82]

Jeff Suppan is just an example of the Milwaukee market. Doug Melvin has to over pay to get a free agent to even sniff coming to Milwaukee.

Soup was the best he could do at the price. If anyone thinks CC or Cliff Lee would/will sign for the "going rate" to stay or come to Milwaukee

Actually not really. There were three or four pitchers who were as good or better than Suppan who Melvin could have gotten. Padilla, Lilly, and Meche were all available and Meche signed a contract similar to what Suppan got. Meche definitely isn't a great pitcher but he would be better than Suppan right now and well Lilly would be injured right now. Though we would be stuck with Meche next year I don't believe he has a buyout in his contract.

[adambr2]

Jeff Suppan is just an example of the Milwaukee market. Doug Melvin has to over pay to get a free agent to even sniff coming to Milwaukee.

Soup was the best he could do at the price. If anyone thinks CC or Cliff Lee would/will sign for the "going rate" to stay or come to Milwaukee

you're dreaming. Sorry fans, it is a fact of life. In fact Dave Bush could be getting Soup money for next season. Also, where is the chatter about the pitching coach? At least Bill Castro got more out of Hoffman and Suppan than Peterson. Amazing but true. Nary a word. Sign Prince Now.

 

 

#1, Bush is not getting Soup money next season. The market for a guy like Bush is not even close to that right now. And some players require overpayment to come to Milwaukee, but not all. Not every player needs or wants L.A. or New York. Washburn wanted to come here or Minnesota. And sign Prince now? There's a GREAT example of a guy who is going to need to be severely overpaid if we are to keep him around. He may get overpaid no matter where he goes. Slugging first basemen are a dime a dozen. Combine that fact with his defensive deficiences, and I'm just not sure it's worth it.

[TooLiveBrew]

Jeff Suppan of 2006-'07 wouldn't get Jeff Suppan money anymore, the market was completely different then from how it is now

[tigerbrew]

In fact Dave Bush could be getting Soup money for next season. Also, where is the chatter about the pitching coach? At least Bill Castro got more out of Hoffman and Suppan than Peterson.

Dave Bush is not getting Suppan money next season. Bill Castro was fired by Melvin after just 4 months as pitching coach. Castro was dealt a poorer staff than Peterson but he got more out of his pitchers. Castro was made a scapegoat when the real problem was the weak pitching staff and depth that Melvin had assembled last year.

[brewmann04]

There is no way that the Brewers overpay for Bush next season. and a very good point about Castro.

[joepepsi]

Dave Bush is not getting Suppan money next season. Bill Castro was fired by Melvin after just 4 months as pitching coach. Castro was dealt a poorer staff than Peterson but he got more out of his pitchers. Castro was made a scapegoat when the real problem was the weak pitching staff and depth that Melvin had assembled last year.

So, when do we start blaming Peterson for a lot of this mess?

[Invader3K]

Jeff Suppan of 2006-'07 wouldn't get Jeff Suppan money anymore, the market was completely different then from how it is now

Yeah, I agree completely. It was a different time then. Wasn't that the same off-season that Zito got his gigantic contract from the Giants?

[brewmann04]

If this staff is supposed to be better than last year and we added a good pitching coach and the staff is worse who gets the blame here.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yeah, I agree completely. It was a different time then. Wasn't that the same off-season that Zito got his gigantic contract from the Giants?

Yes, and like others have mentioned, Gil Meche (5/$55M), Ted Lilly (4/$40M)... Carlos Silva (4/$48M) was the next offseason. It was just an entirely different economic landscape, even in baseball.

[Invader3K]

brewmann04]If this staff is supposed to be better than last year and we added a good pitching coach and the staff is worse who gets the blame here.

Well, I think it's pretty much impossible to blame the pitching coach for how horribly Hoffman, Hawkins, Davis, Wolf, and Bush all have regressed (and aside from the fact that injuries are a factor with some of those guys). When you have all those guys that are red flags, plus Suppan, it becomes a matter beyond the manager and coaching staff. It falls on the general manager.

[TheCrew07]

Dave Bush is not getting Suppan money next season. Bill Castro was fired by Melvin after just 4 months as pitching coach. Castro was dealt a poorer staff than Peterson but he got more out of his pitchers. Castro was made a scapegoat when the real problem was the weak pitching staff and depth that Melvin had assembled last year.

So, when do we start blaming Peterson for a lot of this mess?

I'm surprised the pitching coach issue took so long to come up over here, it's been talked about quite a bit over at BCB. Peterson hasn't had much of an opportunity to work with Parra as a starter. Yo is pretty much the same guy he was last year though he had an encouraging start last time out, he's just getting way too many full counts. The rest of the guys are old and/or have declining skills, I'm not sure what Peterson is supposed to do with Davis, Suppan, and Bush? Bush is pitching well enough given his limitations velocity wise, he's just never had great stuff even when he was pitching around 88 MPH. Narveson is about at his ceiling, he's not filthy but is holding is own with what he has. Any magic a pitching coach would have would be tied to pitchers who still have the ability to get better who are in the starting rotation as Peterson would be able to work with those guys during the side sessions between starts. The only 2 starters that would fit the bill are Yo and Parra (who's back in the bullpen), and I'm not sure the pitching coach matters in Parra's case, his issues appear to be mental in nature, the stuff is there. Maybe a sports psychologist would have been a better investment than a pitching coach in his case.

 

The blame here lies squarely on Melvin's shoulders as he stopped building rotation after the team broke out in 2007. Once the team got competitive he went into band aid mode patching holes through FA and with rental player trades, spending his assets (not only dollars but players) in the least efficient manner ossible and it caught up to him these last 2 years. There's no such thing as competing for a championship with a rotation that is just "good enough". He continues to do well picking up scrap heap players that can contribute, even with guys like Narveson, but we haven't needed to swap out pitchers at the back of the rotation, we've needed to address the top of the rotation and it just hasn't happened in Melvin's tenure outside of one rental player trade that I believe ultimately set the franchise back. Melvin traded his one shot to acquire a pitcher of significant talent without having to give up a MLB piece for a rental player, the emotional response to a playoff appearance aside, was that one appearance worth losing the nest 2 years and maybe 3?

 

Peavey and I had a long discussion about "going for it" during the Fielder window prior to and again after the Sabathia trade and I was adamant that the Brewer's window to compete didn't have to close with Fielder. I believed we had enough positional depth that we could upgrade other positional spot and replace Fielder's production through 2 or 3 guys, but if we acquired more pitching we'd be right there in the thick of the race year in and year out. Fast forward 2 years and I no longer hold on to any hope that Melvin will trade to acquire the pitching we've so desperately needed and knew we were going to need once Sheets departed. Instead of the window staying open as long as possible, it may have already closed when very few of us were paying attention.

[JohnBriggs12]

It is clearly Melvin's fault. Since 2007 season ended, he spent 16.25 million on Mike Cameron, $11.15 million on Kendall/Zaun, approximately $20 million on Hall, $12.75 million on Riske, $13.5 million on Hoffman and $10 million on Gagne. That's almost $85 million to various mostly older players, none of which are starting pitchers. Was some of that spending necessary? Probably, but certainly nowhere near that amount. Lets say instead of spending $85 million on those positions, he spent $55 million. That would have left him $10 million per year that could have been used on starting pitching. Now given his track record, it's quite possible that he would have wasted that also, but we'll never know.

[TooLiveBrew]

Melvin traded his one shot to acquire a pitcher of significant talent without having to give up a MLB piece for a rental player, the emotional response to a playoff appearance aside, was that one appearance worth losing the nest 2 years and maybe 3?

 

This, imo, is a very difficult question. In a cold, hard assessment of franchise building, I agree completely with your view that it was a mistake. However, there's a bit of gray involved, in that the playoff appearance itself was -- and continues to be -- a big step/achievement for the franchise. Now, of course, that isn't to say that the 2008 team wouldn't have made the playoffs if a (younger) pitcher who would have been here longer had been acquired instead of Sabathia. However, I think the chances of anyone -- let alone a younger pitcher -- pitching as dominantly as Sabathia did in his time here are slim to none.

 

While I agree with your method in general, I don't believe it's as simple as being 100% for or against of Melvin's decision to go after CC. While it certainly hasn't continued to help the team on the field, it has helped at the gates & in terms of merchandising and other revenues. I think Melvin saw a shot to go after a WS title in 2008, and like you say, you don't get there without elite pitching. Up until Sheets was injured (after throwing a brilliant season for the Crew), the Brewers had as good a top 3 starting pitchers as there was in baseball, maybe the best.

 

In hindsight, I definitely would have preferred to see Melvin view things as a continual process of building, but I honestly can't say I blame him absolutely for seeing a shot to go for it, and taking it. While on the surface, it may just be the emotional reaction you mention, that emotional reaction has led to very tangible revenue increases. I won't argue that Melvin has spent money wisely, but the playoff appearance has absolutely given the team more money to work with. I just think it's a complex issue.

[jeffy]

Bill Castro was fired by Melvin after just 4 months as pitching coach. Castro was dealt a poorer staff than Peterson but he got more out of his pitchers. Castro was made a scapegoat when the real problem was the weak pitching staff and depth that Melvin had assembled last year.

So, when do we start blaming Peterson for a lot of this mess?

Maybe in a couple more months?

Melvin was asked how much of this should fall on new pitching coach Rick Peterson, who came in with high expectations of improving the staff.

"It's been two months," said Melvin. "You can't change coaches every two months. I think we're all puzzled by this. I think the pitchers who aren't performing are puzzled."

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/95361664.html