Dan Haren?

[mrbergmann]

There are rumors starting to float out there about the D-Backs possibly dealing Dan Haren (he's under contract for the next 3 years for ~$40 million). If the Brewers decide it's time to move Prince, would a deal involving Haren make sense?

[nate82]

There are rumors starting to float out there about the D-Backs possibly dealing Dan Haren (he's under contract for the next 3 years for ~$40 million). If the Brewers decide it's time to move Prince, would a deal involving Haren make sense?

No. The Diamondbacks wouldn't be looking to trade 3 years of Haren for 1.5 years of Prince. That makes absolutely no sense at all if anything the Diamondbacks are going to be looking for pitching and hitting prospects than someone like Fielder it just does not make any sense at all.

[TheCrew07]

Is he a top of the rotation starter now? Is has to be a statistically oddity but he's actually given up more HR (16) than BB (15) so far. His peripherals are still good BB and K wise, but he's been getting hit hard to start the season, he's given up 12 more hits than IP so far, in addition to all those HRs. He's also 29, he's much older/expensive than I would be looking for when trading Fielder.

 

To acquire Haren I'd much rather the deal be similar to what LAA gave up for Kazmir. LAA gave up Sean Rodriquez, Alexander Torres, and Matthew Sweeney. Torres is pretty nice LHP prospect, his FB sits 91-93 and touches 95, but he doesn't have much in the way of secondary pitches, and he's very small for a pitcher. He's listed at 5' 10" 185 LBs. He's pitching well as a start in AA, and was at the time of the trade as well.

[JohnBriggs12]

Here's what everyone seems to be missing in all the discussion about trading Fielder.

 

To get a veteran pitcher like Haren, you need to deal young pitching. An example is the Peavy trade last year. The Sox sent the Padres Clayton Richard, Adam Russell and another minor league pitcher to get Peavy. The key guy in the Halladay trade, was pitcher Kyle Drabek.

 

Conversely, to get young pitching you need to deal veteran pitching.

 

Fielder might get you a decent hitting prospect and a mid level pitching prospect, but nobody is going to deal a young high quality arm on the verge of major league success for a hitter. Take a look at what Oakland got for Matt Holliday: Two hitting prospects and 25 year old AAA pitcher with a career minor league ERA over 4. What makes anyone assume trading Fielder solves the pitching issues?

[TheCrew07]

Conversely, to get young pitching you need to deal veteran pitching.

Where's the proof of this? The scenario you present is only true when discussing CY candidate pitching, that certainly isn't part of the discussion in regards to Fielder. The historical evidence to the contrary has been beat to death. I'm somewhat surprised this opinion keeps coming back around when it simply isn't true.

 

To get young pitching you simply need to be in the right place at the right time, as in an organization with some excess pitching has to be willing to trade and be interested in one of your players... or put more simply, it's all about needs matching up. It doesn't matter if you're trading CY candidate pitching, MVP candidate hitting, or prospects for prospects, the needs just have to match up. We obtained Sabathia for 2 hitting prospects and a reliever in A ball {who turned out to be injured).

 

I'll simply say what I've always said, we have to give value to get value, and if Melvin won't part with a hitter who's performing well, none of the rest matters.

[monty57]

it's all about needs matching up.

 

Exactly. It's the same any time a transaction is being made. If two sides each have something the other desires, a deal can be made. The Brewers need to find a team in the playoff hunt that has some pitching prospects and wants to increase their offense for a playoff push.

 

 

If the Brewers decide it's time to move Prince, would a deal involving Haren make sense?

 

No, because the Diamondbacks wouldn't be trading Haren unless they're ready to go on a youth movement. They'll want young players/prospects for Haren. That doesn't mean the Brewers couldn't make a push for him, but that depends on the Brewers' plans and how much it would cost them in prospects. If the Brewers think they can be a competative team over the next few seasons, we could offer up some of our prospects for Haren. Three years / $40MM is probably cheaper than the Brewers would be able to find a top of the rotation starter in FA, and the Brewers will have money after this season.

 

Maybe we trade an advanced bat (Gamel/Salome) and one or two of our A/AA pitchers for Haren and then trade Fielder for a young pitcher and a young hitter. Sign someone like Dunn or Lee to play 1B next year, and we could be a better overall team without a big rebuilding period. Yo, Wolf and Haren would make a pretty good top of a rotation.

[Invader3K]

Maybe we trade an advanced bat (Gamel/Salome) and one or two of our A/AA pitchers for Haren and then trade Fielder for a young pitcher and a young hitter. Sign someone like Dunn or Lee to play 1B next year, and we could be a better overall team without a big rebuilding period. Yo, Wolf and Haren would make a pretty good top of a rotation.

 

I think a plan along these lines makes a lot of sense. While I think a rebuilding period of some sort is inevitable very soon, I don't think it has to be as long as some on this forum seem to think. The Brewers are in a very good position with a lot of money off the books after this season. Of course, the extra payroll flexibility must be used wisely.

[HiAndTight]

I'm alright with trading for Haren even while sorta "retooling" rather than rebuilding, but I just can't bring myself to part with either Lawrie or Gamel. I like both too much and I think moving forward we're going to need to replace Princes production by committee and those two are huge keys to that. Lawrie should be ready by late '11, OD '12, Gamel right now.

 

So that doesn't leave a whole lot. Lorenzo Cain I suppose.

 

Salome has almost no value now as he can no longer catch. He was a nice bat for a catcher, not so much for a RF'er. In fact, I'd be surprised if he ever sees 50 starts on an even 75 win team as a Of'er moving forward.

 

So Haren's right on that outter limit of types of pitchers I'd go after in terms of age and contract length, if you have to trade Prince it doesn't make much sense to add Haren.

 

The only way you add Haren is if you re-sign Prince. And that would require Prince to develop the requisite backbone to stand up to Boras and allow the Brewers to sign him BEFORE Free Agency. But with Boras thinking he can get Prince MORE than Howard, it's pretty much over.

[monty57]

Here's the Catch-22. If you re-sign Prince, there's a good chance you can't afford Haren. Haren at 3/$40MM would essentially take up the salary Prince is currently being paid. If Prince is getting $20-25MM, we could probably afford both for a year or two, but we'd get squeezed as Braun, Yo, Escobar, Gamel, etc start getting more expensive. Even if we could afford it, I honestly don't think there's any chance of Fielder re-signing (the timing of Boras' $200MM comments appear to me to be a slap in the face of Melvin/Mark A).

 

I don't know that Haren is the right guy or not, but the years and salary are about right for the Brewers. If they sign a top-line guy (say Cliff Lee), they're likely going to have to give him 5-6 years in the $15-20MM range. With all the young pitching coming up, I don't want to take the risk of signing a contract like that, when in 3-4 years we could have a fully homegrown rotation at a cheap price. To me, three years seems about right to bridge the gap. Having Haren, Wolf and Yo all signed would make it possible to trade one or two of our young pitchers (although that could turn out to be painful if they pan out).

 

I don't want to trade someone like Gamel either, but he & McGehee play the same position (and neither has been moved yet to see if they could play elsewhere), and you have to give value to get value. The Diamondbacks aren't going to give up Haren for nothing, nor are any other teams who have a good pitcher on the market. Plus, by the end of this season, we could be pretty close to being two years into Gamel's pre-arby years. I thought Salome was just playing RF for a game to keep his bat in the lineup, as he can't catch everyday. I think he's caught something like 8 games vs 1 game in RF since coming back... I may be wrong on that. I agree that if he's a RF his value is down significantly.

 

If we could put a lineup something like:

 

SP 1 Yo

SP 2 Haren

SP 3 Wolf

SP 4/5 Parra/Capuano/Narveson/guys up from minors like Rogers, Rivas, etc

 

We could also get someone for Prince that could be in the rotation, making it even stronger

 

RP Axford

RP Braddock

RP Hawkins

RP Dillard

RP Stetter

RP Parra/Capuano/Narveson/guy from minors

RP Parra/Capuano/Narveson/guy from minors

 

1B Dunn or Lee (signed to 1-2 year deal)

2B Weeks

SS Escobar

3B McGehee

LF Braun

CF Gomez

RF Cain (or Hart if not moved)

 

Our offense would be similar to this year (especially if we signed Dunn), and our rotation would be significantly better, especially if we are able to trade Prince for a good, young arm that could help out in the rotation next season. With Yo, Haren, {good young pitcher from Prince trade}, Wolf, #5 we could have a playoff caliber rotation. In Haren's "down year" this year (he's 29), he's started 13 games (1 CG), 87.2 IP, 88 K, 17 BB, with a 1.36 WHIP and 4.83 ERA. His BAA is .288 (.252 career). He's still a good pitcher in his prime.

[RyDogg66]

The Brewers should probably be looking to acquire a guy like Haren this year.

[TooLiveBrew]

I would really like to see Melvin explore that, too