Pitch count problem needs more urgency

[TooLiveBrew]

If you want to get into nitpicking the accomplishments, they've been to a WS, so that's not really the same results. And their farm system is widely regarded as being better than the Brewers' (ranked #1 in MLB heading into this season by Baseball America), as is their big-league club.

 

You make a good point on the fanbase, but there seems to be some extra difficulty in doing well there in Florida (beyond the woeful stadium). Perhaps it's the amount of transplanted 'natives'? I'm not sure.

[pebadger]

Their model has basically been competing in a very weak division. . . . . . Solid for sure, but nothing that will guarantee any postseason appearances.

 

On offense, the Twins really aren't much different from the Crew, either, in that they have their two premier bats & then a bunch of average to above-avg. type guys around them. The model franchise I want the Crew to emulate is Tampa Bay.

But don't you have to take the division into consideration in building the team? Unless your goal is to have the best record in all of baseball every season, you only have to beat who you have to beat. One approach to building a team is to state that the objective is to win/consistently compete for the division and take your chances after that. The Twins have done exactly that. The other approach, to simply stockpile an arsenal that is focused on the postseason and which sort of takes a playoff appearance for granted, is simply beyond the means of all but a few franchises.

 

Tampa Bay is a nice story. We'll see how they do in the long run. I like the Rays as currently constructed, but to my eyes there is a heck of a lot of "lightning-in-a-bottle" there. We'll see if the organization can prove itself over the longer term. Hope they can, but just don't know if it's possible given the economics and the division they play in.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Tampa Bay is a nice story. We'll see how they do in the long run.

 

I agree that they haven't had a sustained run of success just yet, and probably do need to 'prove it' some more. However, if we're comparing 'models', the Rays already have one more WS appearance than the Twins since TB's inception (1998)... and the Twins' postseason record since '98 is a woeful 6-18.

 

Your point on the divisions is relevant only to the divisional titles. The Rays inherently have it harder, but imo that doesn't mean they should be overlooked for trying to build an elite organization (which, at this point, they have imo), where the Twins have merely been compiling one that will compete in the AL Central (after all, ultimately the Twins have to compete with Boston & the Yankees as well). Nor does it mean, to me, that the Brewers should favor MIN's approach over TB's. I should say that I think very highly of the 2010 incarnation of the Twins, and think they are a serious contender in the AL as long as Mauer, Morneau, & Liriano stay healthy.

 

 

I like the Rays as currently constructed, but to my eyes there is a heck of a lot of "lightning-in-a-bottle" there.

 

I don't agree with this. They are constructed well enough currently to be serious contenders with the likes of BOS & NYY, and have the best record in MLB. They also have a farm system regarded as the best in baseball. I'm definitely betting on them being able to sustain success.

 

 

The other approach, to simply stockpile an arsenal that is focused on the postseason and which sort of takes a playoff appearance for granted, is simply beyond the means of all but a few franchises.

 

I think the fact that the Rays have been able to essentially do this through drafting & development calls into question whether or not only a few (I take that you mean the wealthiest) franchises can do it. I think that it takes a bit of a perfect storm, a la Tampa, but it seems to have been proven that it can be done without a $150M-ish payroll. You need to make the right hires in the front office, of course.

[trwi7]

So, lose 100 games 10 years in a row then make the playoffs once and completely fall apart the next year?

How did they completely fall apart? They still won 84 games in by far the toughest division in baseball in a tougher league than the Brewers play in. BTW, that 84 wins would be the second most by the Brewers in the last 19 years. And the Rays didn't need to make a midseason trade and have that starter pitch on three days rest for the last month of the season in order to just barely squeak into the playoffs on the last day of the season.

 

[jeffy]

pebadger wrote: One approach to building a team is to state that the objective is to win/consistently compete for the division and take your chances after that. The other approach, to simply stockpile an arsenal that is focused on the postseason and which sort of takes a playoff appearance for granted, is simply beyond the means of all but a few franchises.

In Tampa Bay's case those two approaches would end up being the same due to the division they are in, wouldn't they?

[NievesNoNO]

Yes, I agree someone has to be accountable for getting these pitchers to throw more strikes/ attack hitters more. Not sure who that falls on, the catcher, pitching coach, individual pitcher??

 

As for the Rays, there's not doubt they're finding success right now and their GM is going to get some recognition, but the truth of the matter is this team has been 10 years in the making with a crazy amount of high first round picks.

[3Putt]

Our best pitcher is tied for the league lead in BB's. Maybe Gallardo doesn't have enough life on his fastball to throw a pitch over the heart of the plate without getting tagged. Sheets was able to throw a 2-0 fastball down the pipes without much damage. Guys like Suppan and Davis (and now Hoffman) just can't do that without being lit up. In my opinion we can be somewhat more aggressive but only as much as our talent level allows us to be.

 

One other thought I'd like to get feedback from the experts on. Whatever happened to having an occasional knuckleballer in the rotation to eat up innings? Guys like Candiotti used to be decent #5 starters who could throw all day if necessary.

[FVBrewerFan]

I'm not sure the answer is "attacking the strike zone." Pitching is about getting hitters to swing at balls. (Just ask Bill Schroeder.) The problem I see is too many wasted pitches. There is nothing wrong with trying to hit a corner on a 1-2 count, no need to throw a fastball down the middle. Brewers pitchers aren't nibbling enough when the count is in their favor. Instead they're throwing it in the dirt, eye level, or way outside. Now, for some batters that's a good strategy- they may shcae it. But for the most part, I would like to see our pitchers stay around the strike zone instead of completely wasting 10 pitches or so each start.

[TheCrew07]

The model franchise I want the Crew to emulate is Tampa Bay.

So, lose 100 games 10 years in a row then make the playoffs once and completely fall apart the next year?

Isn't that exactly what the Brewers did?

And that's different from what the Brewers did how? Because we were drafting low through 90s and early 2000s? Except that they won 97 games, 84 games, and are on pace to win 90 games again... with pitching.

[FVBrewerFan]

Sorry to interupt the deabte, but this topic is not about who is the model francshise, it's about pitch count. No biggie, I just noticed this has gone way OT.

[danzig6767]

Interesting article on ESPN.com about the Minnesota Twins and how they emphasize throwing strikes. Notice the table on the side of the article that contrasts the Brewers efficiency rate with the Twins efficiency rate. Just one of many reasons why the Twins are a "model" franchise and the Brewers only make the playoffs once in a million years.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com...ick_jerry&id=5195322

If the Twins are a model franchise, I want to use a different model. Their model has basically been competing in a very weak division. They have Liriano, and then their other starters are guys that don't have the velocity to consistently put guys away. Slowey (4.43 career ERA), Blackburn (4.19), Baker (4.32), & Pavano (4.43) really aren't anything special. The Twins' rotation is basically the equivalent of an injury-prone Gallardo + 4 pre-injury Dave Bushes. I don't see what's so admirable there. Solid for sure, but nothing that will guarantee any postseason appearances.

 

On offense, the Twins really aren't much different from the Crew, either, in that they have their two premier bats & then a bunch of average to above-avg. type guys around them. The model franchise I want the Crew to emulate is Tampa Bay.

I can understand liking better what Tampa is doing recently, but i think the tone of your post to harshly diminishes the fabulous success over that the Twins have had for around the last decade while operating on a small market budget. Even if the AL Central generally hasn't been the toughest division in baseball, the Twins have still presided in the AL which for awhile now not only has the DH, it's been the better league than the NL.

 

I just took a quick trip to yahoo, in the standings section it goes back to 2002.

 

2002-- 94-67 won division

2003-- 90-72 won division

2004-- 92-70 won division

2005-- 83-79

2006-- 96-66 won division

2007-- 79-83

2008-- 88-75 lost division in a one game playoff

2009-- 87-76 won division

2010-- 24-16

 

Five division titles and barely missing a 6th in the last 8 years would have been pretty damn outstanding for me. You can differ on some of their philosophies for team building, but i can't see how anyone wouldn't heap huge praise on the Twins front office over the last decade or so. Given their payroll limitations, the bottom line results have been as good as anyone in the game IMO. If say there was a stat for the most amount of wins the last 10 years per dollar spent by each team, i'd have to assume Minnesota would rank at the top or right near it. Their beliefs on pitching and defense can't be diminished in helping contribute greatly to all that success. In that time frame, only once did the Twins not have a team ERA in the top half of the AL. Plus, it's not as if they could go out like Boston and buy expensive hard throwers like Schilling/Beckett or the Yanks go buy Sabbathia. They generally had to build pitching staffs largely on the cheaper side.

[jeffy]

If the Twins emphasis has been pitching and defense, that certainly seems to have worked out better than the Brewers emphasis on sluggers.

One question mark would be how much the dome helped them by giving them an above average home field advantage.

[TooLiveBrew]

Reply sent to Danzig to avoid any further thread hijacking

 

EDIT: also sent to Jeffyscott

[jeffy]

The "hijacking" seems related to the topic. If the problem is that the team has been built with a lack of both pitching and defense, is there really much that can be done about it in the middle of the season?

Ken Rosenthal:

"Except for Gallardo, the Brewers’ starters are so soft, they can’t get through lineups twice...

Velocity isn’t everything, but it’s not as if the Brewers are control artists — their walk rate is also the second-highest in the NL. Then again, if you were a Milwaukee pitcher, you might be afraid of contact, too.

 

The Brewers...rank last in the majors in defensive efficiency, a statistic that measures the percentage of balls in play that are converted into outs."

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/MLB-Brewers-change-pitchers-or-management-051910

[3Putt]

I'm not sure the answer is "attacking the strike zone." Pitching is about getting hitters to swing at balls. (Just ask Bill Schroeder.) The problem I see is too many wasted pitches. There is nothing wrong with trying to hit a corner on a 1-2 count, no need to throw a fastball down the middle. Brewers pitchers aren't nibbling enough when the count is in their favor. Instead they're throwing it in the dirt, eye level, or way outside. Now, for some batters that's a good strategy- they may shcae it. But for the most part, I would like to see our pitchers stay around the strike zone instead of completely wasting 10 pitches or so each start.

That is a good point. Our guys throw way too many pitches that nobody is going to swing at. Watching our guys swing at breaking balls low & outside makes me wonder why we can't return the favor. It's a shame that on the rare occasion our pitchers get ahead in the count they give it right back.