Pitch count problem needs more urgency

[AJAY]

I respect Yovani Gallardo's ERA, strikeouts, and dominating stuff. However, I am also equally frustrated by his inability to go deep into games. Same with the other starters too. The bullpen is being blown out from over-use, and they can't be expected to eat up 3-4 innings every single night. It's no surprise the relievers are getting torched lately because none of them ever seem to get much rest. Unfortunately, the relievers are taking all the blame for giving up runs, but I think the starters are more to blame for not giving the relievers more rest.

 

It seems like every time Yovani Gallardo has a 1-2 count on a batter, it eventually ends up being a 3-2 count. Multiply this by many hitters per night, and all of a sudden Gallardo is looking at being near 100 pitches by the 5th inning. It's extremely frustrating to not see him go after hitters much earlier in the at-bats.

 

Would it be asking too much for Ken Macha and Rick Peterson to really make it more of a priority to have guys throw more strikes and not nibble as much? How about once in a while throwing a strike even on an 0-2 count just to keep the pitch count down, especially when you have good stuff.

 

I know the Cardinals are huge believers in pitching to contact and maybe we need to incorporate more of that philosophy too. I know this might result in more hits and possibly more runs, but this team really needs to do something drastically different in order to save the bullpen. If we just keep doing the same things, we will get the same disappointing results.

 

I really think the pitch count problem is not getting enough attention.

[JohnBriggs12]

You're right Ajay. The real problem now is that the pattern doesn't change and opposing hitters are on to it. The strategy against Gallardo is to run up his pitch count and its working. Hitters know that when he gets to 2 strikes, he tries to put you away with his curveball in the dirt. They are taking that pitch. He either needs to throw that pitch in the zone, or use his fastball. Either way, he has to get the hitters guessing more.

 

The overall problem with this staff is that they lack sink on their fastballs. A lot of people were down on Pineiro (oh he's just a product of Duncan) and Garland (he's another Suppan) as FA possibilities this offseason, but they are exactly the kind of sinkerball, pitch to contact guys the Brewers staff is lacking.

[jeffy]

The pitchers may be afraid of contact, because they have a poor defense behind them. The Brewer's philosophy of trying to win by creating a team full of DHs (exaggerating a bit) is, perhaps, part of the overall problem with pitching.

[Funketown]

It's definitely a concern. With a guy like Yovani, I tend to tolerate it just because he's been so good in his limited innings this year. However, I do wonder if he would be better off just giving up more contact in order to go 7-8 consistently.

 

As for comments about the defense, I doubt pitchers are afraid of contact because of the defense. I didn't expect the defense to be this bad, and maybe they aren't this bad, but it has been a bit painful to watch. Hopefully as Escobar continues to develop and Gomez comes off the DL the defense will be better.

[Invader3K]

I think the last few games have shown that we need Gomez in CF. Gerut and Edmonds just aren't that good playing that position. Also the right side of the infield has been pretty bad, worse than last year. McGehee isn't great, but I haven't seen him blowing plays like Fielder and Weeks have.

[joepepsi]

Not counting Suppan's starts, the rotation of Yo, Wolf, Bush, Davis, and Narveson is averaging 5-2/3 innings per start. Is this really that different than other teams? Throw out Davis and the other 4 are just under 6 ip per start.

 

I realize other teams have CC and Halladay types that give the bullpen a virtual day off every once in a while, but how many teams have a rotation like the Brewers', where everyone regularly pitches into the 6th?

 

Brewer relievers may be making more appearances than average, but is the pen really pitching that many more innings than the average NL bullpen?

[TooLiveBrew]

McGehee isn't great, but I haven't seen him blowing plays like Fielder

and Weeks have.

 

McGehee is the type of defender that's pretty sure-handed, but is weakened by lack of range. So he doesn't necessarily look bad out there like Weeks can, but Casey just doesn't get to enough balls to be a good 3B... hence why I'd like to see him at 1B & Gamel at 3B in the post-Prince era.

 

 

Would it be asking too much for Ken Macha and Rick Peterson to really make it more of a priority to have guys throw more strikes and not nibble as much? How about once in a while throwing a strike even on an 0-2 count just to keep the pitch count down, especially when you have good stuff.

 

You can't honestly think Macha & Peterson don't ask their pitchers to attack hitters, can you? I'm not sure what can really be done about the pitch counts, from a coaching perspective. This is on the players. I

mean, it's not like guys want to only throw 5 or 6 innings a night.

[MJLiverock]

The Brewers staff as a whole averges just under 18 pitches per inning, dead last in the NL. Part of their problem is they have issued the 2nd most BB's in the league and surprsingly are 5th in K's. Another surprise to me at least is that Parra, Suppan, and Bush are the most economical, although probably due to Bush and Suppan being near the bottom in K rate. They are the only 3 under 17/inning pitched, while 11 teams average less than 17/IP.

 

The Cardinals and Phillies are the leaders at uner 16/IP and coincidently both average less than 3 BB's per 9 as well, leading the league.

[FVBrewerFan]

You can't honestly think Macha & Peterson don't ask their pitchers to attack hitters, can you? I'm not sure what can really be done about the pitch counts, from a coaching perspective. This is on the players. I mean, it's not like guys want to only throw 5 or 6 innings a night.

If they are preaching that message, it's not getting through. Isn't that the point of coaching? If the players are ignroing them, that tells us alot about Macha and Peterson.

 

Wasting pitches has always been part of baseball, but with pitch counts scrutinized so closely it's a bigger issue these days. The biggest problem I see is that far too many pitches are completely wasted. WAY high...outside..etc. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to try for the corners when you're ahead in the count. If you miss, fine. You'll still get some swings. Want someone to chase high heat? Throw at the shoulders, not their eyeballs. It doesn't take an advance scout long to figure this out about the Brewers. Just take a lot of pitches, chase the starter. Then you play Russian roulette with 4-5 pitchers from the bullpen for 3-4 innings. Odds are at least 1 of 5 will have an off night, and you hit him hard. That's the formula to beat the Brewers.

 

 

[TooLiveBrew]

If they are preaching that message, it's not getting through. Isn't that the point of coaching? If the players are ignroing them, that tells us alot about Macha and Peterson.

 

Or this (imo more likely) scenario -- the players aren't ignoring them, they're just not executing

[bklynbrewcrew]

Something has to be done about this. Every starter the Brewers have cant ever seem to throw less than 20 pitches in an inning. When Gallardo first came up he was a real strike thrower but even he has regressed the last two years in regards to throwing strikes.

[Oldcity]

I can't stand watching Gallardo. He's wasting his talent the last two seasons. The walks are beyond frustrating. I compare him to Braun when he hacked at everything a couple years ago. Good, but could be so much better.

[logan82]

I know it has been posted several other times, especially by endaround, but I have to go with our bad infield defense as a big part of the problem. Weeks has probably been our best infield defender. Escobar has been below average despite his obvious physical skills. Fielder and McGehee have both been below average as well. I was expecting McGehee to be better with a fixed knee but he still doesn't look like a good defender.

[davemakovec]

I can't stand watching Gallardo. He's wasting his talent the last two seasons. The walks are beyond frustrating. I compare him to Braun when he hacked at everything a couple years ago. Good, but could be so much better.

I'm glad someone else feels this way. I am as high on Gallardo as anybody, but it is so frustrating to see him waste 20-30 pitches per start on junk instead of going after hitters.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I know it has been posted several other times, especially by endaround, but I have to go with our bad infield defense as a big part of the problem. Weeks has probably been our best infield defender. Escobar has been below average despite his obvious physical skills. Fielder and McGehee have both been below average as well. I was expecting McGehee to be better with a fixed knee but he still doesn't look like a good defender.

I'm not giving the bad defense a complete pass on this, but last I checked nobody from that bad infield defense had walked anybody. I understand that giving teams extra outs definitely elevates pitch counts, but IMO the bigger problem is having a pitching staff full of guys who appear to be nibbling too much because they're not confident in their stuff being good enough to get guys out. I'll acknowledge the defense has let the Brewers down this year, but far too often it happens after a pitcher's already walked somebody, which really leads to big innings and high pitch counts.

 

 

[madrx]

I thought that the original post stated my thoughts exactly. I agree that the pitchers are walking too many batters, but it seems like they get ahead and then waste pitches until the count is full before throwing another pitch that is close to a strike. Against the Mark Reynolds and Adam Dunns of the world who strike out a fair amount and have serious power this is understandable, but it seems like the pitchers are throwing this way against bottom of the order middle infielders and opposing pitchers as well.

[TheCrew07]

Brewer relievers may be making more appearances than average, but is the pen really pitching that many more innings than the average NL bullpen?

It's so much the bullpen, as the distribution of IP.

 

In a blowout, and there have been plenty, why throw 4 guys? Why not just 1 reliever? We've had at least 2 former SP in the pen all season that could give us 4 IP in a pinch. Is it really necessary to warm up and pitch 3 or 4 relievers in blowouts? Even in a close game if a reliever breezes through his inning and his spot doesn't come up to hit, why not run him another inning? Dhonks has been beating that drum pretty loudly and I think he has a point, Yost would let Villy pitch 4 innings on occasion, even in a close game. It was a move necessitated by his defined bullpen roles, he'd run himself out of relievers pitching the same guys so many consecutive games which drove me friggen nuts, but I will give him limited credit for addressing the effect even he would never address the root cause. A move like that can save the pen as much as a starter going the distance. Macha finally ran a reliever out today, but I think that was more the intended design with Parra starting than him reacting to the situation in the game.

[AJAY]

Interesting article on ESPN.com about the Minnesota Twins and how they emphasize throwing strikes. Notice the table on the side of the article that contrasts the Brewers efficiency rate with the Twins efficiency rate. Just one of many reasons why the Twins are a "model" franchise and the Brewers only make the playoffs once in a million years.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com...ick_jerry&id=5195322

[afeter]

You have to go back to the 1996 Twins staff, which had Rich Robertson and Frankie Rodriguez in the starting rotation, to find a Minnesota team that didn't rank among the game's top five in fewest walks allowed. In nine of the past 13 seasons, the Twins have ranked first or second in that category.

 

--this is just amazing. My envy makes me hate the Twins

[logan82]

Our pitching staff compares favorably to the Mets in K/9, BB/9 GB%, LD% and FB%. The only huge differences are our LOB% is 8% higher and our BABIP is .336 compared to .308 and of course our ERA is 5.27 compared to their 3.89. I would have to conclude most, but not all, of our pitching problems are defense based.

[markedman5]

It was nice to see Estrada get through 4 innings with only 55 pitches today.

 

It can be done even with the Brewers defense if you throw quality strikes and work ahead in the count.

[TooLiveBrew]

Interesting article on ESPN.com about the Minnesota Twins and how they emphasize throwing strikes. Notice the table on the side of the article that contrasts the Brewers efficiency rate with the Twins efficiency rate. Just one of many reasons why the Twins are a "model" franchise and the Brewers only make the playoffs once in a million years.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com...ick_jerry&id=5195322

If the Twins are a model franchise, I want to use a different model. Their model has basically been competing in a very weak division. They have Liriano, and then their other starters are guys that don't have the velocity to consistently put guys away. Slowey (4.43 career ERA), Blackburn (4.19), Baker (4.32), & Pavano (4.43) really aren't anything special. The Twins' rotation is basically the equivalent of an injury-prone Gallardo + 4 pre-injury Dave Bushes. I don't see what's so admirable there. Solid for sure, but nothing that will guarantee any postseason appearances.

 

On offense, the Twins really aren't much different from the Crew, either, in that they have their two premier bats & then a bunch of average to above-avg. type guys around them. The model franchise I want the Crew to emulate is Tampa Bay.

[Baldkin]

The model franchise I want the Crew to emulate is Tampa Bay.

So, lose 100 games 10 years in a row then make the playoffs once and completely fall apart the next year?

Isn't that exactly what the Brewers did?

[TooLiveBrew]

No, as I'm sure TheCrew07 can (or already has) fill us in, it's about their development/drafting of pitching & identification of talent as a whole. Plus, they're leading the AL East at this point by a relatively healthy margin -- imo it's pretty unfair/misleading to leave that out.

[Baldkin]

My point is, I'm not sure you can say they are really good at evaluating talent and building things the right way when compared to Milwaukee. The Brewers have the exact same results (thus far) as the Rays, only the Brewers have actually cultivated a fan base on top of everything else.

10 years of top 3 draft picks has netted them one playoff birth.

Maybe they've turned things around, but they still have to prove it.