anyone else seeing big changes ahead? Latest: Mark A says Melvin is going to be here a long time, Macha will not be fired Monday

[bklynbrewcrew]

So the big question is, if Macha and Melvin should be replaced, who are the better options out there? I agree both should be gone, but my concern is will their replacements be any better with what's out there?

 

There are plenty of good options as replacements for both Macha and Melvin. For the rest of the season I much prefer Sveum over Randolph but want neither after the season. In fact I would prefer to keep Macha instead of Willie who is an awful manager. As for Melvin i have two good suggestions; Mike Arbuckle who was the former scouting director for the Phillies who drafted the likes of Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, and Cole Hamels to name a few. He was wrongly passed over for the GM job there in favor of Ruben Amaro and fits teh Brewers criterior to a tee in that he has put together a strong farm system. The other guy I like is Logan White of the Dodgers who is their scouting director. White has drafted the likes of Matt Kemp, chad Billingsley and Clayton Kershaw. Both of these men have shown a great eye for talent which is what we need as GM of our team.

[PeaveyFury]

Will their replacements be worse than the current situation? Maybe, maybe not.

 

I think that for a partial season, it's irrelevant who replaces Macha, especially considering the hole they have to dig out of anyway, and you're right that you're not going to do much worse than they are now. For Melvin, I'd support a change only if they upgrade. You can certainly do much worse at GM as we've seen over the past 20 years of this franchise, so they'd better be darn sure they're getting someone better than what they have. With Attanasio's Yankee background, I'm deathly afraid he'd be more inclined to hire one of his favorites like Randolph permanently, along with someone like Steve Phillips or someone else with New York ties over someone that can run a small market club. One thing we just don't know anything about as of yet is his ability to pick and assemble the correct guys on his own, and that scares me.

[markedman5]

Not sure it will make a difference or not but Colorado sure started to play better last year after they made the change.

 

Can't hurt.

[Beast Light]

and his inaction regarding the organization's pitching issues should be grounds for dismissal on it's own.

 

I don't think "inaction" is the right word to use. Signing Wolf (2007-2009 ERA of 3.95), Davis (4.22), Hawkins (3.14), resigning Hoffman (2.82), and stocking AAA with Estrada, Loe, and Lofgren is not what I would call "inaction". Now, so far the major league portion of those players have been poor choices (and the AAA players very good), but "inaction" is not accurate. You could also argue that letting go of Cameron to free up the salary to bring in Wolf and Davis could also be considered "action" to address the organization's pitching issues.

The Brewers can't afford to build a pitching staff by signing players that are 33 (Wolf), 34 (Davis), 37 (Hawkins), 41 (Hoffman) and 32 (Suppan). It is too expensive and the level of uncertainty is too high. The Brewers certainly can't act as if they are surprised when they see these types of payers decline.

 

As far as I am concerned, the Brewers farm system has generated 1 legitimate Major League pitcher that would be worthy of starting for a good team under Melvin's 8-year watch. The Brewers have traded players such as Carlos Lee, Richie Sexson, Lyle Overbay, JJ Hardy and failed to get any meaninful in terms of pitching in return. Some may think that the lack of pitching can be blamed on Jack Z but Doug Melvin was the one ultimately running the show and had numerous opportunities to go after pitching via trade.

 

 

[Beast Light]

So the big question is, if Macha and Melvin should be replaced, who are the better options out there? I agree both should be gone, but my concern is will their replacements be any better with what's out there?

Well, this team currently has the 4th worst record in baseball so this is a risk I would be willing to take.

 

[bklynbrewcrew]

Will their replacements be worse than the current situation? Maybe, maybe not.

 

I think that for a partial season, it's irrelevant who replaces Macha, especially considering the hole they have to dig out of anyway, and you're right that you're not going to do much worse than they are now. For Melvin, I'd support a change only if they upgrade. You can certainly do much worse at GM as we've seen over the past 20 years of this franchise, so they'd better be darn sure they're getting someone better than what they have. With Attanasio's Yankee background, I'm deathly afraid he'd be more inclined to hire one of his favorites like Randolph permanently, along with someone like Steve Phillips or someone else with New York ties over someone that can run a small market club. One thing we just don't know anything about as of yet is his ability to pick and assemble the correct guys on his own, and that scares me.

You completely read my mind in regards to possible future hires. I bet Attanasio loves Willie from his playing days and thats a major issue. As for Phillips I doubt he would be in the picture due to his situation but you are correct in pointing out that we done know what the owner would look for in a GM hire. I hope he wouldnt want a has been name for GM and does good research to find guys like Arbuckle and White.

 

 

[RockCoCougars]

I would bet there is a 95% chance of Randolph managing Tuesday's game at this point. As someone else mentioned, Mark A. was a Yankee fan, so I'm sure he's enamored with the guy. I didn't watch many Mets games when he was there, so I have no opinion on him. Apparently, he worked wonders with Weeks, so I wouldn't be dead set against giving him a chance, especially considering the season is pretty much over already. If he's as bad as many claim, he will be comparable to Royster in 2002, and we won't have to worry about him being a candidate for the full time job. If that happens, once the season is over, both he and Melvin will be gone. I agree with those who say that Sveum should get the job, but I don't see it happening. On the slight chance that it does, Willie will be gone in a couple of days as well.

[TheCrew07]

and his inaction regarding the organization's pitching issues should be grounds for dismissal on it's own.

 

I don't think "inaction" is the right word to use.

I should have phrased that better, I was working on the idea of impact talent, of which we had Sheets, and now we have Yo, and Yo compares more favorably to the pre 2004 Sheets. I just don't think a team can legitimately compete for a WS with 1 impact pitcher and 4 guys.

[Postseason2006]

Melvin should've never been back last year. I've long considered how serious Mark A is at having a winning franchise or just is more concerned about current numbers at the gate.

[The Truth]

Not that I'm wishing Ned Yost was still our manager, but it would have been extremely entertaining watching Yost flip out on the umpire after that 1st inning argument between Bush and the ump. Macha has no fire...

[logan82]

I should have phrased that better, I was working on the idea of impact talent, of which we had Sheets, and now we have Yo, and Yo compares more favorably to the pre 2004 Sheets. I just don't think a team can legitimately compete for a WS with 1 impact pitcher and 4 guys.

I think you are probably right especially since I don't think Gallardo is a true #1. Another pitcher as good as Gallardo and the top of our rotation would look a lot better.

 

There has been a definite shift in drafting over the last couple years. I think we will need a couple years to see if Melvin has made the right moves over the last few years. In any case, I think there is almost no way Melvin is fired before the draft.

[giffted1]

Beast Light]As far as I am concerned, the Brewers farm system has generated 1 legitimate Major League pitcher that would be worthy of starting for a good team under Melvin's 8-year watch.

It has been stated multiple times that Doug chose to focus on drafting hitting at first. We now have two of the best hitters in baseball. Recently he has changed his focus to drafting pitching. It takes time to develop prospects. The pitching is coming.

The Brewers have traded players such as Carlos Lee, Richie Sexson, Lyle

Overbay, JJ Hardy and failed to get any meaninful in terms of pitching

in return.

Not at all true. See Chris Capuano, Jorge De La Rosa, Francisco Cordero, etc.

Some may think that the lack of pitching can be blamed on

Jack Z but Doug Melvin was the one ultimately running the show and had

numerous opportunities to go after pitching via trade.

Realistic opportunities? Teams just don't trade good young pitching that often.

[Postseason2006]

Francisco was no longer closing and then Melvin compounded matters throwing in Cruz to get Nix.

 

Capuano already had TJ surgery and was dealt once along with De La Rosa. Stud prospects rarely get dealt twice. Throw in the fact that De La Rosa was dealt again for a backup middle infielder too.

 

Define often? I could list over 20 decent younger pitchers or pitching prospects off the top of my head. In fact, I bet the Brewers could have Wandy Rodriguez instead of the junk we got from Houston for an All Star LF.

 

I want to know if we turned back the clock to the classic game on FSN right now(Weeks/Fielder first homer game 2005), how many of us would be happy if we were told we would have 1 playoff appearance winning only one game in it? Then tell people that we would have CC Sabathia as a starting pitcher and that would still be the same.

 

I guarantee that there would be a lot of GM's that could've had the same results.

 

 

[logan82]

Francisco was no longer closing and then Melvin compounded matters throwing in Cruz to get Nix.

 

We probably had to add in Cruz along with Lee to get Cordero.

[Postseason2006]

If that WAS the case, how more pathetic.

 

Garza and Kazmir are two pitchers along with the Twins fleecing the Giants that I can think of right now if recent memory who were traded. Dan Haren is another one the Brewers could've possibly had.

[TheCrew07]

There has been a definite shift in drafting over the last couple years. I think we will need a couple years to see if Melvin has made the right moves over the last few years. In any case, I think there is almost no way Melvin is fired before the draft.

Once again what does Melvin have to do with the draft? Seid makes all of the selections, just like Jack Z made all of the selections before him.

[PeaveyFury]

I believe there was a story that Jack didn't want Gallardo but Melvin overruled him. Not sure where I read it, though. Beyond that, I wouldn't see a GM change having a major effect on the draft operations.

[WisconsinSportsRule]

Not that I'm wishing Ned Yost was still our manager, but it would have been extremely entertaining watching Yost flip out on the umpire after that 1st inning argument between Bush and the ump. Macha has no fire...

Exactly. If Macha isn't going to stand up for his own player by getting into a heated argument, then I'm not sure the players respect him.

Could you imagine what Yost or Bobby Cox would have done about that situation last night?

 

[TheCrew07]

The Brewers have traded players such as Carlos Lee, Richie Sexson, Lyle

Overbay, JJ Hardy and failed to get any meaninful in terms of pitching

in return.

Not at all true. See Chris Capuano, Jorge De La Rosa, Francisco Cordero, etc.

Capauno was/is a mid rotation starter, he's a crafty lefty, he's not blowing people away like Sabathia, he's a pitchability guy. JDLR had that kind of talent, but didn't find his stride till 2008 with a different organization, regardless he was the first and last pitcher with impact talent acquired and that was in 2003. Cordero is reliever, I'm not sure how that's relevant to the discussion at all. Who is etc? Bush? Jackson? Villy? Cody? Butler? Vargas? Ohka? Etc is spot on because none of those guys are top of the rotation talent either, they are all basically the same template pitcher. Butler is the only pitcher in the group that consistently works/worked above 90 MPH..

 

Realistic opportunities? Teams just don't trade good young pitching that often.

Based on what exactly? Every season good young pitching is moved, sometimes for pitchers, sometimes for hitters, acquiring it is all about timing and a willingness to give up value to get value. The simple truth is that every time a position player performs the majority of people around here aren't willing to trade him. Unfortunately we aren't going to get an impact pitcher trading away spare parts. Very few people wanted to trade Hart when he was hot, very few wanted to trade Hardy when he was going well, very few people were willing to trade Fielder until recently, very few posters are willing to part with McGehee. Every time myself or someone else brings up that sort of idea we've been basically dismissed as idiots. So I ask, how exactly do we acquire impact pitching post Sabathia trade if we won't trade a MLB piece who's performing? We don't have enough impact talent to spare in the minors anymore and while we do have some very nice depth, most of it has been greatly devalued like Gamel, Cain, and Salome. If we won't give up value, give up a piece that might hurt, then nothing is ever going to change.

 

I really like the state of pitching in the lower levels of the minors, but we've been here before as an organization in the summer of 2003, we had studs from Huntsville all the way down to Helena. 2 years later Jones and Parra were hurt, Hendrickson was ineffective, Wilhelmsen was out of baseball, Eveland was struggling, Sarfate couldn't throw strikes... our pitching depth seemed to evaporate overnight. The reason I post about TB isn't bandwagon jumping, it's about organizational philosophy. The have true legit impact pitching depth, every starter in their rotation is as good as Yo, and most have better stuff. They have Hellickson waiting in AAA, they are loaded down through Colome in A ball. Sure they drafted high, but so did the Brewers for over a decade. The difference is that they traded for 3 impact starters (Garza, Kazmir, and Jackson) bridging the gap to when the young talent would be ready. If the talent pans out like in TB's case, then they easily moved Kazmir and Jackson to make room for that young talent. If the talent wouldn't have worked out they still would have been covered by the pitchers they originally traded for. I'm not willing to rely solely on the farm system yet, leaving it to chance hasn't exactly worked out well in the past.

 

Forget about wins/losses for a minute and just look at how the organizations are being built... I'd much rather be TB, Baltimore, or Texas right now than Milwaukee. I'm not sure how the job Jon Daniels has done in Texas continually flies under the radar, they are going to be a force for years to come, just like TB. Those organizations keep adding impact talent while maintaining their youth, the Brewers just keep getting older.

[TheCrew07]

I believe there was a story that Jack didn't want Gallardo but Melvin overruled him. Not sure where I read it, though. Beyond that, I wouldn't see a GM change having a major effect on the draft operations.

Colby posted about the debate in the draft room, but he never painted it as solely Z vs. Melvin, I'm not sure where that has come from. Melvin certainly would offer input, but it's not his show to run.

 

The way I read it was that the room was fairly split with both sides arguing for their guy.

[Invader3K]

In response to the thread title, apparently, Mark Attanasio does not:

 

McCalvy: Attanasio was clear, Doug Melvin has total job security and there's no chance of a managerial change on Monday.

 

Edit: More comments here.

[giffted1]

Define often? I could list over 20 decent younger pitchers or pitching prospects off the top of my head. In fact, I bet the Brewers could have Wandy Rodriguez instead of the junk we got from Houston for an All Star LF.

If you're arguing that Melvin should have traded for more top of the rotation talent, I'm not sure why you would use Wandy Rodriguez as an example. His career numbers look very Chris Capuano-like to me. A good pitcher, but not an ace.

 

Cordero is reliever, I'm not

sure how that's relevant to the discussion at all.

My post was a reply to the claim that Melvin failed to get any meaningful pitching in return in his trades.

 

Based

on what exactly?

Trades made in recent years.

Every season good young pitching is moved, sometimes

for pitchers, sometimes for hitters, acquiring it is all about timing

and a willingness to give up value to get value.

Examples, please. I'll give you the Morrow deal from this past off season, but he was dealt for pitching. Young, top of the rotation talent is not dealt as often as you constantly try to make it sound.

 

The simple truth is

that every time a position player performs the majority of people

around here aren't willing to trade him. Unfortunately we aren't...

There were a significant number of posters (myself included) who felt that McGehee's value would never be higher than it was this off season and that he should have been dealt.

The reason I post about TB isn't

bandwagon jumping, it's about organizational philosophy. The have true

legit impact pitching depth....

Tampa Bay had the luxury of having high draft picks for a number of years.

Forget

about wins/losses for a minute and just look at how the organizations

are being built... I'd much rather be TB, Baltimore, or Texas right

now than Milwaukee. I'm not sure how the job Jon Daniels has done in

Texas continually flies under the radar, they are going to be a force

for years to come, just like TB. Those organizations keep adding

impact talent while maintaining their youth, the Brewers just keep

getting older.

Instead to trying to compare the current state of the Brewers organization to TB or Texas, take a look at how the organization has progressed under Melvin's watch. Compare the recent Power 50 to one of the earlier ones. It's almost silly how much more talent is in the system now. This isn't meant to be a criticism of the current Power 50, but we've got a 19 year old doing very well in A ball and he's only at 22 on the list (yeah, he's been walking a lot of guys but still).

[Invader3K]

Here's the meat of Attanasio's quote about Doug Melvin, via Adam McCalvy:

"Doug Melvin is very, very secure. You're not going to see any GM changes here. Absolutely not. Doug Melvin has built up too much credibility. You're going to have to a lot more than even a bad season for him to have any issues with his job security. To all of our fans, look, it feels great to get it off your chest, but you're going to have to be dealing with our general manager for a long time."

[The Truth]

In response to the thread title, apparently, Mark Attanasio does not:

 

McCalvy: Attanasio was clear, Doug Melvin has total job security and there's no chance of a managerial change on Monday.

 

Edit: More comments here.

Ugh. Ugly situation brewin'... Mark A goes on to say that it will take more than just one bad season for Melvin to be fired, too...

 

Perhaps if Mark A won't listen to fans complaining then maybe he'll pay more attention when fans stop showing up at Miller Park

 

 

[MNBrew]

Define often? I could list over 20 decent younger pitchers or pitching prospects off the top of my head. In fact, I bet the Brewers could have Wandy Rodriguez instead of the junk we got from Houston for an All Star LF.

Junk from Houston for an All-Star LF? Lee went from Texas to Houston as a FA. We got an All-Star closer from Texas for Lee.