Texas Rangers vs. Brewers pitching comparison

[NYChez]

Texas: 2008 ERA 5.37; 2009 ERA 4.38; 2010 ERA 3.68.

Brewers: 2008 ERA 3.85; 2009 ERA 4.83; 2010 ERA 5.07.

Tell me again why we had the falling out with Mike Maddux?

(Note, removing CC from the 2008 number, we still had a 4.07 ERA)

[endaround]

No one had a falling out. Texas offered him a huge sum of money.

[Ennder]

Texas had a bunch of young up and coming pitchers, the Brewers completely failed at drafting pitching. If you want to blame anyone here I'd point my fingers at Jack Z and Doug Melvin, not Mike Maddux. An organization who drafts 2 viable starting pitchers in a 10 year stretch is going to struggle no matter what, no use in pointing fingers anywhere else. Also if you are going to point fingers at Melvin it should be for the drafting not the signing of old vets, the team really hasn't had many other options except trading for a younger pitcher with more time left rather than Sabathia. While we have developed some nice bats there hasn't exactly been a ton of depth in the system to trade for needs.

[brewmann04]

I agree the Brewers failure to add any arms is a big reason the brewers are in this mess.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Interesting comparison btwn the teams is that CJ Wilson and Manny Parra:

 

2008: Parra: 4.39 era 1.542 whip age 25

2009: Parra: 6.36 era: 1.829 whip age 26

2010: Parra: 4.42 era: 1.418 whip age 27

 

2008: Wilson: 6.02 era: 1.64 whip age 27

2009: Wilson: 2.81 era: 1.33 whip age 28

2010: Wilson: 1.51 era: 1.104 whip age 29

 

Kevin Milwood went from a 9-10 5.07 era pre Maddux to a 13-10 3.67

 

It wasn't only the young one's since Maddux got them to get ahead of the count. Throw strikes early so you don't have to later. Who has improved for the Brewers in the post Maddux era?

 

It was

[Ennder]

Of course Wilson had a 3.03 ERA in 2007 and 4.06 ERA in 2006 so it really doesn't look the same when you include all the data and you would probably want to compare them by age not by season.

 

Milwood had an ERA of 2.86 as recently as 2005. His xFIP in 2009 was actually the worst of his career he just got really lucky with LOB%.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Of course Wilson had a 3.03 ERA in 2007 and 4.06 ERA in 2006 so it really doesn't look the same when you include all the data and you would probably want to compare them by age not by season.

 

Milwood had an ERA of 2.86 as recently as 2005. His xFIP in 2009 was actually the worst of his career he just got really lucky with LOB%.

Sure ender you can go back and look at things and it might take a different look so let's do it:

 

24: 6.94

25; 4.06

26: 3.03

27: 6.02

28: 2.81

29: 1.51

 

Millwood btw is doing great this year with a 3.26 era so his luck must be continueing.

 

ender who has improved since Maddux left? You want to throw in Wilson's 3.03 which would be his 3rd lowest era behind the two with Maddux. His other 3 without Maddux were 6.02, 4.06 and 6.94. Texas pitcher's love Maddux and it shows. Can the Brewers say that?

 

As for a boatload of money being paid we pay Peterson 600,000 a year, the same amt Maddux gets in Texas!

 

 

 

[nate82]

Bush would be someone that hasn't changed since Maddux left he is still the same pitcher as he was when Maddux was here. If you throw out last years injury plagued year and use this years stats with Peterson you will see that his stats are about the same as they were when Maddux was here. Villanueva is also doing better this year with Peterson than he ever did with Maddux.

 

Now for Parra the book is still out on him. Last year was more of a precursor to what was happening to Parra at the end of the 2008 season. During the end of the 2008 season Parra was burning out and was showing signs of being what he was doing in all of 2009. You can also file Gallardo as being the same pitcher as when he was with Maddux as when he wasn't with Maddux though 1-years worth of stats really isn't fair for either side of the coin here nor does it really paint an accurate picture.

 

I believe pitching, hitting, fielding, running, etc. coaches are just scapegoats for fans in baseball and nothing more they are also scapegoats for managers and GM's also.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think it has more to do with the names on the jerseys than the coaching staff. Our pitchers are worse now. A lot worse.

[nate82]

I think it has more to do with the names on the jerseys than the coaching staff. Our pitchers are worse now. A lot worse.

Not necessarily. The rotation is only missing an ace like pitcher in the rotation. The only thing that is missing from the Brewers rotation now from when Maddux was here is that there is no ace (Ben Sheets) on the team. This team really does miss Sheets even though he was injured a lot later in his Brewers career Sheets by far is one of the greatest and best pitchers the Brewers have ever had. Sheets could give you 9 innings in almost every game he started in this rotation you have no one who you can reliably count on to go 7 innings. Wolf, Gallardo, and Bush are all equal to what the Brewers had before if not better. The only thing the Brewers are missing is a Sheets like pitcher.

[RoseBowlMtg]

It is too early this year to label it but Ender your points are valid for some pitchers being almost the same, not better.

 

Let's look at Bush:

 

era:

08: 4.18

09: 6.38

10: 4.24

 

Looks like he is back.

 

whip:

08: 1.114

09: 1.469

10: 1.463

 

This yr is similar to last's so far

 

Just to look deeper: walks + hits per 9 innings

08: 7.9 + 2.3 = 10.2

09: 10.3 + 2.9 = 13.2

10: 9.1 + 4.0 = 13.1

 

Bush's is starting out this yr like last in whip.

 

I agree that coaches and managers get too much blame and credit but we brought Peterson in to hopefully do the job Maddux is doing.

[Ennder]

Well if you are going to break it down year by year at least use something like xFIP that is somewhat stable and not so heavily luck based.

 

Bush - 4.54, 4.45, 3.76, 4.36, 4.67, 4.79, .4.97.

 

His GB% has been pretty steady, his K/BB has been pretty steady, he has consistently given up around 12% HR/FB. While his ERA looks good this year his skills are worse than they have been in previous years, unless something changes expect to see that ERA jump up a lot very soon. He is off to the worst season of his career so far this year, it just isn't showing in the ERA. This would support your suggestion btw but I still don't think Maddux is a huge part of the reason, I just think the league had adjusted to him in 2007 and he isn't the same guy since the injury.

[RoseBowlMtg]

Well if you are going to break it down year by year at least use something like xFIP that is somewhat stable and not so heavily luck based.

 

Bush - 4.54, 4.45, 3.76, 4.36, 4.67, 4.79, .4.97.

 

His GB% has been pretty steady, his K/BB has been pretty steady, he has consistently given up around 12% HR/FB. While his ERA looks good this year his skills are worse than they have been in previous years, unless something changes expect to see that ERA jump up a lot very soon. He is off to the worst season of his career so far this year, it just isn't showing in the ERA. This would support your suggestion btw but I still don't think Maddux is a huge part of the reason, I just think the league had adjusted to him in 2007 and he isn't the same guy since the injury.

ennder just curious if you think any pitching coach effects a team? Getting their message across? Comfort with the players? Teaching skills? How long do they have to go for what Maddux has done as for the cause and effect for both teams to garner praise? Another year? Two- Four more? Just curious.

 

[logan82]

How long do they have to go for what Maddux has done as for the cause and effect for both teams to garner praise? Another year? Two- Four more? Just curious.

 

Never. Nate mentioned it earlier, coaches and managers are just scapegoats to be fired when the fans get restless.

[Ennder]

ennder just curious if you think any pitching coach effects a team? Getting their message across? Comfort with the players? Teaching skills? How long do they have to go for what Maddux has done as for the cause and effect for both teams to garner praise? Another year? Two- Four more? Just curious.

I'm sure they do but it would be more for younger players or pitchers who develop a new pitch or something. If a pitcher just keeps throwing his same stuff the pitching coach might have a minor effect on him, not a major one. In this specific example you have a team who brought up a ton of high talent young pitchers since he arrived, I mean there is no way to isolate how much good or bad Maddux is doing there.

[RoseBowlMtg]

logan too extreme for me. So a 10 yr old is as good as Peterson or Maddux? Of course not but there are degrees of help but to what extent is the question imo.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think it has more to do with the names on the jerseys than the coaching staff. Our pitchers are worse now. A lot worse.

Not necessarily. The rotation is only missing an ace like pitcher in the rotation. The only thing that is missing from the Brewers rotation now from when Maddux was here is that there is no ace (Ben Sheets) on the team. This team really does miss Sheets even though he was injured a lot later in his Brewers career Sheets by far is one of the greatest and best pitchers the Brewers have ever had. Sheets could give you 9 innings in almost every game he started in this rotation you have no one who you can reliably count on to go 7 innings. Wolf, Gallardo, and Bush are all equal to what the Brewers had before if not better. The only thing the Brewers are missing is a Sheets like pitcher.

That's a pretty massive piece to be missing.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The rotation is only missing an ace like pitcher in the rotation.

 

That's like saying the only thing a great bar/nightclub is missing is women.

[NYChez]

The rotation is only missing an ace like pitcher in the rotation.

 

That's like saying the only thing a great bar/nightclub is missing is women.

The Rangers don't have an ace, and they seem to be doing alright - beat the Cubs last night 2-1 to go 4 games up in the AL West.

[Ennder]

Well Ranger starters haven't exactly been amazing this year. Feldman has a 5.90 ERA, Harrison a 5.29 ERA, Harden a 4.74. Holland is the only guy they have with an xFIP under 4. Looking deeper into the stats they mostly have very low BABIP and high LOB% except for Feldman. That could be a good bullpen and good defense partially at play, could be a bit of good luck. Considering none of these guys were starters for the team even 3 years ago it is hard to say what part of this is Maddux though.

[Postseason2006]

No one had a falling out. Texas offered him a huge sum of money.

So the Brewers couldn't do the same? We throw DD 5 million too much, Wolf got 4 million too much.

 

[paul253]

Even though this has nothing to do with anything, it is a thread about the Rangers so I thought I'd post it here. Does anyone else find it weird that they have both Red and Blue alternate uniforms? Those are two completely opposite colors. It seems so funny to me.

[bigredrobbo]

Even though this has nothing to do with anything, it is a thread about the Rangers so I thought I'd post it here. Does anyone else find it weird that they have both Red and Blue alternate uniforms? Those are two completely opposite colors. It seems so funny to me.

The three colors in the Texan flag are red, white and blue. You know how Texans get around flags!

[sgtcluels]

ERA is a poor metric to evaluate a pitching staff. It takes into account things like defense, park conditions, etc...it's more of a team stat then an individual stat. I'd suggest basing the comparisons via xFIP. Try to isolate the pitcher and not the team. (Poor defense will inflate the ERA. Good defense will deflate the ERA.)

[joepepsi]

Colby Lewis and CJ Wilson were both drafted by Doug Melvin.