Gord Ash Audio on the Prospects -- Your Thoughts?

[HiAndTight]

I think it's odd that you essentially cite the randomness in predicting who will & won't be able to consistently throw strikes, & then blame the organization for the most uncontrollable element of all in pitching -- injuries. What do you base your opinion that the "medical staff is definitely lacking behind" upon?

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I've heard this on a couple of occasions, the second guessing about this pitcher who waited to have surgery or this player who waited.

 

It's incredibly easy to second guess when a guy is shut down with shoulder soreness, they try to rehab it, and then 2 months later after failing he has to have surgery. But it's taking a far more complex issue and trying to simplify it by saying, "the staff should have caught it earlier". Coming from a guy who's had several shoulder surgeries, almost too many to count, it's anything but an exact science how ligaments, muscles, tendons will repair. It's exceedingly difficult.

 

That's not to mention you have a couple hundred players within a system, and you're also going off the assumption that athletes are being 100 pct forthcoming with all their injuries. Or even more to the point that pitchers KNOW enough about a sore shoulder to know it's something more serious. Players under sell their injuries, they don't report them to the team right away, they leave after the season with a sore shoulder/elbow thinking a little rest will heal it and then it does not.

 

I find it particularly annoying when fans who have absolutely no further insight than any of the rest of us do come to the conclusion that our medical staff is somehow derelict in their duties is absolutely absurd. We all like to play amateur doctors when talking about these injuries, but we need to keep in mind....that's all we are.

 

 

 

As for the pitchers and their instructors, that's one area I agree with....sorta. I believe that minor league instructors are VASTLY underpaid. You invest tens of millions of dollars in these players. Usually at least 10 a year and then perhaps a couple more on the Latin American market(though I can think of 30 additional million that SHOULD have been spent last year) and you scrimp on the instructors for these players.

 

I don't know that it's the Brewers fault that we have pitchers who are wild. Let us not forget that power armed pitchers who struggle with the strike zone is by no means a Milwaukee Brewers issues, it's a professional baseball issue. It's way too early to throw Jeffress, Rogers, even Fredrickson into the group of "failures", but the minor leagues are littered each year with pitchers who have the arms to be aces, but are unable to command their pitches.

 

 

The fact of the matter is both of these issues are more luck than anything else. You see the Brewers making advancements in their attempts to limit the variables in each situation, but at the end of the day, the single biggest factor is just good old fashion good LUCK.

[HiAndTight]

It's really all a matter of opinion on what capitalizing is. Imo, putting up an OPS north of .800 when starting as a rookie is pretty darn impressive. Putting up the league-average 3B batting slash line as a rookie with sporadic playing time is pretty impressive imo as well.

 

This is why I'm of the belief that Mat didn't get the gig because of something behind the scenes, whether it's just that people don't like him, or if he has a bad work ethic and/or attitude, or some combo of those factors.

 

First of all, apologies for the multiple posts in a row. I try not to do that on this board, but sometimes I come into a good discussion late and want to add my thoughts.

 

 

I'm in complete, 100 pct disagreement when it comes to Mat Gamel. At leats with those who have soured on him or want to trade him. Obviously this is only from my vantage point, and I don't know what kind of kid he is, if he has attitude problems, is a bad guy, teammate, what have you, but from watching him play, if the Brewers give up on him and trade him, I believe they'll be making a rather large mistake.

 

Gamel was not given anything close to a fair shake last year. In fact, it was laughable. The guy's one of the top 20 pure hitting prospects in the game, absolutely rakes in AA, rakes in AAA, we bring him up, sit him on the bench where his biggest issue is not being able to get into a rhythm and taking too many pitches, and called 3rd strikes, we send him back down and he doesn't quite play as well.

 

So that takes him from one of the elite prospects in the game to a guy we are looking to dump?

 

Gamel's got one one of the prettiest left handed swings I've seen. Short, compact, he stays in the zone and he stays in there vs left handed pitching to the point where he has hit lefties as well as RH'ers in the past. In fact, in many ways he reminds me of Chase Utley.

 

It's just absolutely dumbfounding how this kid is almost seen to have "blown his chance", yet Rickie Weeks, JJ Hardy, and several others were allowed to fail.

 

Gamel will become a .310/.395-ish hitter who will post an OPS around .850 and hit 25+ HR's in his peak years as an everyday player. With his athletic ability, I also believe he could become a premier defender at 1st base. Moving him now would be monumentally stupid in my opinion.

 

 

 

Will someone PLEASE tell me at what point this organization will start to pick up on this whole sell HI buy LOW philosophy? You wanna trade a 3rd basemen? Casey McGehee. The guy who's likely to perform at a lower level than Gamel, is older and will net you a far bigger return. Plus you've got protection at 3rd in my opinion with Taylor Green and Brett Lawrie(whom I think profiles much better at 3rd than 2nd, but that's for another thread).

[HiAndTight]

It's not that I disagree with you, but I am wondering who specifically you mean.

I meant that, out of a group that includes Jeffress, Rivas, Peralta, Odorizzi, Arnett, Scarpetta, Rogers, even Butler/Anundsen/Heckathorn, I would be surprised if we don't see a couple of (or more) good MLB pitchers emerge by the end of 2012.

(Might as well go for 3 in a row, righthttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif)

 

I completely agree with this. I don't recall having a deeper group of pitching prospects ranging from great to good since I've been a Brewers fan. Of course we've been burnt by the Gold/Neuggy/Jones types in the past, but at this point we've got a far deeper pool from which to pick from.

 

I'm also on board the Amaury Rivas bandwagon. What more do you want in a guy? Mid 90's velocity(Though I'd assume he'll sit around 92-94), a plus change, and a developing off-speed pitch, and a guy who induces a ton of GB's to boot. Seems like a perfect compliment to Gallardo and some of the other high PC, high K, high BB type pitchers we've got coming up.

 

Another one I'm a big fan of is Periard. If he can get healthy and re-establish himself this year in AA, I think he could prove to be a pleasant surprise as a poor mans Derek Lowe. Another big time GB pitcher who throws in the 90's, and has some nice secondary stuff.

 

 

I suppose at the end of the day I'm just a lot higher on this group than others. I like this farm system from top to bottom as well as almost any in the past several years. We have a couple potential stars offensively, but more than that just good players to supplement the talent we have, and then we have a plethora of options on the mound.

 

 

I'd be shocked if in the next 2-3 years we don't have at least a couple good home grown starting pitchers up and a good home grown BP as well.

 

This draft will be especially important. While I'm crossing my fingers for Cole, Workman wouldn't upset me too much either......

[TooLiveBrew]

Gamel's got one one of the prettiest left handed swings I've seen. Short, compact, he stays in the zone and he stays in there vs left handed pitching to the point where he has hit lefties as well as RH'ers in the past.

 

Very well-stated. I absolutely love Gamel's swing, and believe he's as patient a hitter as the Brewers have at any level. We obviously agree completely on Gamel (except that I think he's going to be a plus defender at 3B instead of 1B... if the org. lets him stay there).

 

 

In fact, in many ways he reminds me of Chase Utley

 

That's a very interesting comparison, swing-wise.

[HiAndTight]

Gamel's got one one of the prettiest left handed swings I've seen. Short, compact, he stays in the zone and he stays in there vs left handed pitching to the point where he has hit lefties as well as RH'ers in the past.

 

Very well-stated. I absolutely love Gamel's swing, and believe he's as patient a hitter as the Brewers have at any level. We obviously agree completely on Gamel (except that I think he's going to be a plus defender at 3B instead of 1B... if the org. lets him stay there).

 

 

In fact, in many ways he reminds me of Chase Utley

 

That's a very interesting comparison, swing-wise.

Yeah, his swing's a bit longer than Utley's, but not much. He's just so quick to the ball, I can't imagine why anyone would be down on him at this point, especially given the way he was jerked around by his organization. You expect the Adam Stern and Adam Heether's of the world to be treated like that, but to do that to your top LH'ed prospect on a team that's been painfully void of Left Handed bats in the last few years, it's dumbfounding to me.

 

As for him becoming a plus defender, my thought process there is that you have Taylor Green at 3rd base whom I also like. Obviously not as much as Gamel, but I think Green can bring something to this team that it's sorely lacking, another good, patient "contact" hitter, and I'm loathe to use that term because I think it's overrated, but basically just a very nice complimentary player to the stars we have. A guy who can do a lot of the little things.

 

Between Lawrie, Green, Gamel and Weeks, you have 1B, 2B, 3B and RF. I suppose Weeks could be jettisoned, though I'm maybe one of the few holding out hope he can still become a star.

 

In the end i suppose it comes down to how badly do you want to get Green's bat in the lineup. I would really like to see him in there at some point in the future as our #2 hitter, and I think he'd thrive in such as role, and as such, I'm alright with moving Gamel over to 1st(though I also agree he could become at the least a serviceable defender at 3rd).

 

 

 

 

Either way, I'm absolutely terrified the Brewers are going to do something asinine with Gamel and move him thinking Casey McGehee is the answer at 3rd base for the Brewers. I am a fan of Doug Melvin, but I'll say this, he is the absolute LAST guy I want to manage my finances. He's got the whole, "buy low, sell high" thing all screwed up!

[pete]

What is the source of the statement that Gamel was shopped last year? Is that inside information?

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't see where anyone said that in this thread recently, but I do recall reading about the Brewers shopping him this past offseason for pitching. Not sure who reported that, but probably Haudricourt.

[HiAndTight]

I don't see where anyone said that in this thread recently, but I do recall reading about the Brewers shopping him this past offseason for pitching. Not sure who reported that, but probably Haudricourt.

Yeah, I think the sources of the Gamel trade rumors have been message board fodder and some "experts" pondering if the Brewers may be looking at such a move. I'm worried about it with the emergence of McGehee.

 

I think Doug Melvin's a good GM, and I don't blame him for not pulling the trigger on trading Bill Hall for some of the names that popped up with him(Matt Kemp for one), or JJ Hardy earlier, or even Corey Hart, but it seems like the McGehee/Gamel situation is one that I can see being screwed up very easily and one that should be very obvious to my way of thinking.