Gord Ash Audio on the Prospects -- Your Thoughts?

[Mass Haas]

ESPN Milwaukee talked to Gord Ash, with much of the focus on the farm system.

Rather than add this particular interview to our audio thread, we'll dedicate a thread to it and ask for your analysis.

 

Gord sounds so subdued, almost defeated these days (OK, too strong a word, how about slightly soured). I admit I feel much the same right now, given the injury bugs and several below-average to only-average starts among the top prospects (not all, obviously).

 

Interesting spin of words on Caleb Gindl (among others) -- what do you folks read into his comments, we'd like to hear from you.

[tyguy20204]

Lawrie's work ethic again called into question.

 

Gindl projects as a mediocre player, nothing more.

 

No mention of Katin when discussing outfield prospects. Haydel, on the other hand, is mentioned in AA.

 

Gamel hasn't taken what opportunities have been given to him.

 

Farris is much more highly regarded than many around here would assume (except for John Briggs).

 

Not any viable depth behind Prince Fielder at 1B. Sorry Koshansky et al.

 

I do think I agree with you, Mass, subdued is too strong a word. Gord just seems pretty realistic in his assessment of things, it's actually kind of refreshing.

[nate82]

Gindl to me is comparable to Matt Stairs. Both are about the same height and during the minors they were about the same size also. Yeah I know it is hard to imagine Matt Stairs as being smaller than what he is now. But I believe Gindl can be a serviceable MLB player not someone you would want in your everyday lineup but he can definitely be a good bench guy giving you some nice pop off the bench.

[twobrewers]

*Sigh*

Gord speaks the truth.

With the recent failures of the Brewers pitching prospects - I wonder how much of that failure can be contributed to the instruction they are receiving while pitching in the minor leagues. Do the Brewers draft poorly at the pitcher position? Or do they develop pitchers poorly?

It seems to me that if you are going to invest millions of dollars in signing bonuses, you really should have top of the line instructors working with your prospects. We have drafted several highly projectable pitchers (Jeffress, Fredrickson, Rogers etc) who have never harnessed their power. Almost every power pitcher in our system has significant control problems.

Gord sounded pretty down on Mat Gamel. I still hold out hope from that amazing AA season - but his star has definitely dulled (fairly or not) in the eyes of the organization.

Lawrie's attitude would not play well in Milwaukee. Milwaukee fans love hard workers.

[DHonks]

To clarify, Gord projects Gindl as a mediocre starter. Contributor, but not all-star. That's a bit different from a "mediocre player"

[TooLiveBrew]

"He's had a couple of shots, and not taken the job"

 

 

This quote on Gamel really burns me up. It indicates the organization doesn't see anything wrong with how he was handled, and that they essentially didn't put much (if any) planning into the use of his service time.

[DHonks]

TooLiveBrew, I agree. When did he have a shot? Last year he had some very good games offensively AND defensively, only to find himself on the bench behind Hall, Counsell, and McGehee. This year he was supposed to compete for the starting spot, but the Brewers would have been foolish to push aside McGehee after his rookie season. I don't think any of us here seriously thought he'd make the roster.

[logan82]

"He's had a couple of shots, and not taken the job"

 

 

This quote on Gamel really burns me up. It indicates the organization doesn't see anything wrong with how he was handled, and that they essentially didn't put much (if any) planning into the use of his service time.

Yeah that really sucks. I mean he really didn't get much of a chance last year. He played a few games and didn't hit well so never got consistent playing time. Maybe he was referring to this year when he got hurt.

 

I didn't think that anything he said about Lawrie sounded all that bad. He just said Lawrie didn't want to be a catcher and he could play just about anywhere on the diamond. Why would a player want to be a catcher if they can hit and are good enough to play somewhere else. Catchers tend to play fewer games and usually end up moving to a different position to extend their careers.

[tyguy20204]

It's more the fact that Lawrie - remember he compared himself to Russell Martin - was initially very enthusiastic about playing catcher, and decided to quit the position after one set of instructionals, ostensibly not because it was too difficult for him, but because it was too much work.

 

Now, why would a player want to be a catcher? A player with Lawrie's projected offensive tools would be a perennial contender for the all-star game. He could have been truly exceptional at that position.

 

Obviously I don't know if the whole catching experiment would have succeeded, but it does bother me that he didn't try harder to shoot for the moon. This, coupled with a plethora of other negative comments about his work ethic, has me a little worried.

 

DHonks, you're right about Gindl - and don't get me wrong, there's plenty to love about getting a mediocre starter.

 

As far as Gamel, yeah I think there's no doubt the team has mishandled him. At the same time he's shown a penchance for getting injured at the wrong times, and he too has been plagued by whispers of attitude problems.

[BrewCrewForever]

Gamel was mishandled so bad last year, I can't believe Ash can't see that. He has never really had a chance to prove himself. But I think he will later this year or next year when we give him the everdya 1B job once Prince is traded.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think tyguy brings up an interesting point on the whispers of attitude problems. Ash went out of his way to praise McGehee -- his work ethic, rapport with teammates, personality, etc. Gamel, on the other hand, definitely comes across as being quite aloof. I certainly will continue to hope the organization isn't making personnel decisions on the basis of whether or not players are "good guys". However, perhaps in this case, they just didn't appreciate a (possibly) poor work ethic from Gamel & wanted to reward the guy in McGehee who works his butt off. Hard to say.

[nate82]

I believe Gamel is going to be traded this deadline. I believe the Brewers organization as a whole are starting to sour on Gamel. Right or wrong in their thinking Gamel should bring back a decent pitching prospect or positional player in a trade. If the Brewers are in it in June and July I could see Gamel being a center piece for someone like Lee. If the Brewers are not in it I could see something like a Hellickson for Gamel + trade. What the plus would be I'm not sure maybe someone like Coffey though I think the Brewers would need to get something more in return if Coffey would be in the deal though it wouldn't be all that much.

 

As for Lawrie I don't see why he should want to be a catcher and I don't really think he would have been a good catcher defensively I believe he is more of a 3B or a corner OF than he is a 2B or a Catcher. Plus Lawrie would be blocked by Salome and Lucroy while having a lot of catcher depth is good the Brewers actually already have plenty catcher depth in the minors. Garfield, Lucroy, and Salome are three pretty good catcher prospects. I don't see Lawrie not wanting to be a catcher as something bad since his bat will play at any position and he should be special at about any position he plays at maybe not so at 1B. I think Lawrie's goal is simple and that is to get to the majors as fast as he can which is fine by me I don't really care if he doesn't want to be a catcher as long as he is playing a position for the Brewers.

 

To me switching positions in the minors is like someone switching their major in college. You have to remember Lawrie is still very young yet and he may not have matured yet as a player or as a person not everyone can be a Prince or a Braun in terms of maturity.

[logan82]

Just to expand on Lawrie a bit. I believe he has attitude problems or at the very least a questionable work ethic. I have heard and read it to many times to just dismiss it. Catcher would have been a bad position for Lawrie. Gord Ash stated that catcher was a position of need for the Brewers and it would have gotten him to the majors quicker. I think it would have pushed his MLB arrival back at least a year and he was drafted the same year Salome tore up AA. Lucroy was also coming along nicely at the time. In the context of just this interview, there is little to suggest any problems with Lawrie. Ash states we are weak at outfield and maybe 3B(seems pretty obvious they don't like Gamel). They are stacked at 2B so Lawrie may have to move to get his bat in the lineup.

[And That]

I think Lawrie ends up at first base, honestly. Gamel is more athletic, so if they are in the same lineup I'd assume have Gamel in LF or RF.

[MJLiverock]

twobrewers hit a point that wanders around my head as well. Why does it seem so difficult for the Brewers to develp a pitcher than can throw strikes? Is there some organizational problem with personel or philosophy that is behind it? They have drafted some power arms in recent years, even taken some fliers on some waiver type guys but none have really developed much control. All the way back to JDLR there have been guys with stuff but none have developed any command of it. Turnbow, McClung, Balfour, Parra, Fredrickson, Rogers, Jeffress, just off the top of my head. I am sure there are others that some of the guys who follow the minors more closely could come up with.

 

Throwing enough against the wall you would think something would stick but they haven't really had a one that developed that control, hence they are always listed as potential and live arms, etc. Some of the guys are still young but there hasn't been a lot of progress. Makes me leary of the next set of guys like Arnett, Heckathorn, Odorizzi being groomed, walks are their bane as well, even though Arnett and Heckathorn played college ball.

[nate82]

It does take awhile for young arms to develop into a good pitcher. Turnbow and McClung are horrible examples especially Turnbow. Turnbow when he was first with the Brewers did throw a lot of strikes and then all of a sudden for no apparent reason after his all star appearance he forgot how to pitch. I don't think you can blame anything on the Brewers staff on that. Just throwing strikes is not something you want I bet they all can throw strikes it is just not the right strikes. Suppan throws a lot of strikes and you can see what happens to him. Bush throws a lot of strikes also.

 

Location is more important than just throwing strikes. It is more than just throwing strikes pitchers have to locate, locate, locate, and change speeds against hitters. There is no pitcher in baseball that is going to get away from the walks they are going to happen especially with the strike zones that both hitters and pitchers have to face for example there isn't a single consistent strike zone across the league from the umpires. It is not something you can blame the staff on for not developing if you could teach this you will have a job for life and you could pick whatever team you wanted to go to also and set your own price. Some of this is mechanics some of it is mental and some of it is just plain luck and skill. I don't think the Brewers have had a hard time developing young pitchers who can throw strikes that is not the problem. It is the Brewers inability to draft pitchers who can stay healthy year in and year out in the minors. Most of that has to do with luck but the Brewers medical staff is definitely lacking behind in my opinion.

[TooLiveBrew]

I think it's odd that you essentially cite the randomness in predicting who will & won't be able to consistently throw strikes, & then blame the organization for the most uncontrollable element of all in pitching -- injuries. What do you base your opinion that the "medical staff is definitely lacking behind" upon?

[MJLiverock]

Bush and Suppan don't have what anyone would call a live arm either and neither came up in the Brewer system, not to mention Bush's control has gotten worse over the years since he became a Brewer.

 

The reason I mentioned guys like Turnbow and McClung is that they are just part of the long list. As I said throwing enough guys against the wall I would think it would stick with one guy, somewhere, a light or a development would happen, but no, none.

I don't think any of the guys mentioned can just throw strikes, they wouldn't walk so many if that was the case. Or at least I would hope they wouldn't be afraid of throwing a strike with their velocity. Locate, locate, locate is fine, it is very important but the fist and primary location to be able to hit is the strike zone, then worry about in, out, up, down. It won't matter and hasn' t mattered for many of these guys. Is Para just JDLR part 2? Great velocity, can K guys, but just can't consistently hit the zone? Balfour, the Brewers may have given up early on, he has been able to keep the BB's down in Tampa.

 

If you can't blame the staff and development system for the inability to develp a pitcher that can throw strikes and break a plane of glass who can be blamed? I can't chalk every problem and miscue up to just bad luck, nor did I even mention all the injury plagued guys aside from Rogers. If there wasn't something to the organizational teaching why have other teams like the Cardinals had success with reclamation guys or even just brining guys up who can avoid walking everyone in sight? As Nate82 said if I could teach someone to throw strikes I would have a job for life, but isnt' the opposite true as well? If you can't teach anyone to throw strikes shouldn't you lose your job? Somewhere along the way the inability to get much of anything from any pitcher brought into the system has to be reckoned with.

[twobrewers]

The Brewers tried trading Gamel this past offseason, they couldn't get anything decent as a return. (Even with Hardy) The organization isn't the only one sour one him - the entire league is.

 

Gord didn't really question Lawrie's work ethic. But he definitely made a point, twice, that is was Lawrie's decision and not the Brewers to switch positions.

[paul253]

The Brewers tried trading Gamel this past offseason, they couldn't get

anything decent as a return. (Even with Hardy) The organization isn't

the only one sour one him - the entire league is.

 

That's because he spent a good portion of the season sitting on the bench. Whoever made the decision to call him up is at least partially to blame for this. Obviously Gamel has to show something, but it's hard to show something when you are relegated to pinch hitting duty. His injury could not have come at a worse time. All of these injuries are getting really frustrating.

[nate82]

If you can't blame the staff and development system for the inability to develp a pitcher that can throw strikes and break a plane of glass who can be blamed? I can't chalk every problem and miscue up to just bad luck, nor did I even mention all the injury plagued guys aside from Rogers. If there wasn't something to the organizational teaching why have other teams like the Cardinals had success with reclamation guys or even just brining guys up who can avoid walking everyone in sight? As Nate82 said if I could teach someone to throw strikes I would have a job for life, but isnt' the opposite true as well? If you can't teach anyone to throw strikes shouldn't you lose your job? Somewhere along the way the inability to get much of anything from any pitcher brought into the system has to be reckoned with.

The injury parts wasn't targeted at you it was a concern that I am having with the Brewers medical staff. Actually with Turnbow though the Brewers turned a guy into someone who wasn't able to throw strikes into someone who was able to throw strikes and then all of a sudden lost it. As for the Cardinals developing pitching they have only really developed two good pitchers in Wainwright and Carpenter. The Brewers were able to get Davis and Capuano on track in terms of coming out of nowhere and then establishing themselves. The blame is two fold here you have to blame the players and the coaching staff. The coaching staff can only coach the player into doing something it is on the player to actually go out and do what they have been taught to do. I wouldn't say the Brewers have been doing a terrible job at this. Parra when he first came up did throw a lot of strikes and he wasn't walking all that many people. Then all of a sudden last year it seemed as though Parra had completely forgotten how to pitch I don't know how much blame you can put on the coaches for that. It maybe something mechanical or mental with Parra but that is another discussion for another time.

I

think it's odd that you essentially cite the randomness in predicting

who will & won't be able to consistently throw strikes, & then

blame the organization for the most uncontrollable element of all in

pitching -- injuries. What do you base your opinion that the "medical

staff is definitely lacking behind" upon?

Based on the past

injuries to nearly every single high profiled pitcher in the Brewers

organization. The lack of ordering MRI's it just seems as though the

Brewers medical staff in the minors is lacking behind. I just do not like the way the Brewers have been treating injuries in the minors for a while now. I am not blaming the organization for the injuries I am just blaming them for not taking care of them in a timely matter and identifying these issues correctly.

[brewmann04]

I have to believe Gord is protecting his pal Melvin and the rest of the FO about Gamel, The kid was put on a bench and used as a pitch hitter instead of refinning his skills in the Minors. This was a bad move that no one seems to want to admit.

[logan82]

"When we brought him up, we might have done him a disservice," Brewers
general manager Doug Melvin said. "We might have been better to let him
stay down there and play the whole year, but he did get the experience
and you hope that he learns from it.

"We still are very high on him. We like him a lot. I think he's going to
be a good big league player. It's just that somebody else has jumped
in. That's what the big leagues are all about -- when you get the
opportunity, capitalize. That's what Casey McGehee has done."

9/28/09 Amazing how things change over one offseason.

[nate82]

The Brewers definitely did do a disservice to Gamel but Gamel also didn't capitalize on his opportunities either.

[TooLiveBrew]

It's really all a matter of opinion on what capitalizing is. Imo, putting up an OPS north of .800 when starting as a rookie is pretty darn impressive. Putting up the league-average 3B batting slash line as a rookie with sporadic playing time is pretty impressive imo as well.

 

This is why I'm of the belief that Mat didn't get the gig because of something behind the scenes, whether it's just that people don't like him, or if he has a bad work ethic and/or attitude, or some combo of those factors.