Zack Greinke [Latest: Deal for Odorizzi/Cain/Escobar/Jeffress in place? reply 464]

[And That]

If they do extend Weeks, the Brewers have long-term answers at second, third, left, and right. That's why I said Lawrie was expendable.

I still have my doubts that McGehee is a long-term answer, so once Prince goes, Gamel will be at third or first, and the Brewers will have a big hole to fill at the other position. Or, Hart could move to first. Lawrie is the only guy in the system that could fill one of those holes with a decent chance of good early success.

 

I guess I just disagree that one of the baseball's top prospects is expendable in any circumstance.

 

Another part to this is that we're dealing with Dayton Moore, who is as likely as any GM in baseball to make a bad move. I'd start with Jeffress, Peralta and Kentrail Davis. Might not quite get it done, but I don't think it would be too far off either.

[Oldcity]

I was considering Gamel the long-term answer at third, not McGehee. I expect Fielder to still be here this year. Granted, that's a fairly big assumption, but I still think it's likely.

 

I agree that the Dayton Moore factor could work in our favor.

[And That]

But after this year at the latest, we'll need someone at first base. Again, could be Gamel, could be Hart, hopefully not McGehee, but then we would need someone else at one of those positions. Lawrie is our best internal option by quite a large margin and he will be cheap until 2015 (which happens to be Braun's walk year).

[RockCoCougars]

In my opinion, Lawrie is a coin flip at best. Though he has all 'the tools', the kid is only around 20 years old, and has by no means tore up the minors thus far. He is no sure thing in my book. In my opinion, at some point, he ends up in the outfield anyway, and the Brewers have Hart, Cain and Braun locked up for the next several seasons. Even if Prince walks, passable first basemen are fairly easy to find, or you could move Hart to first and pick up a corner outfielder who are generally easy to find as well.

 

Sometimes, you have to give up the blue-chip prospect to get things done. In my view, this team can be competitive next season if they make the right moves. In a lot of ways, things are akin to 1980. That season, the Brewers finished way behind Baltimore with a fairly shaky starting staff and leaky bullpen that lacked a closer. Instead of throwing up their hands and assuming that they had to rebuild to compete with Baltimore, they traded the 'next Roberto Clemente' in David Green as probably the key piece in the Fingers/Vuckovich/Simmons deal. True, that deal would never happen these days due to economics, but Green was fairly similar to Lawrie in that he was very young (19?), and very highly regarded, but his tools never translated to minor league success. Green ended up as a flop (which is not to say that Lawrie will). My point is that sometimes you have to roll the dice and give up prospects to get a legit player to fill a pressing need. As far as my recollection, since the big trade with the Cardinals (we are almost 30 years to the day......where did the time go), the Brewers have only done this twice: for Don Sutton in '82 and for C.C. in '08. Both times it worked out pretty well (even though Kevin Bass turned out to be a pretty good player)

[Warning Track Power]

I guess I just disagree that one of the baseball's top prospects is expendable in any circumstance.

 

 

This is the type of thinking that lead to A. Escobar being your starting SS. I for one was never in the trade JJ camp. Escobar was pegged to be a .260 hitter with amazing D. Well that certainly didn't work out in his rookie season. This isn't to say he won't eventually develop but look at the can't miss LaPorta. He's been in the bigs for almost 2 seasons and still hasn't proven to be worth Sabathia to the Indians.

 

While I am in agreement with you about Lawrie being a top prospect, I'll take a proven big leaguer and Ace like Greinke over a prospect anyday of the week.

[And That]

This is the type of thinking that lead to A. Escobar being your starting SS.

I have no problem with Escobar being our starting SS.

 

I never said we shouldn't trade Lawrie, just that we shouldn't if we don't need to. He's valuable, not expendable. I don't know that we would need to trade him to get Greinke.

[Warning Track Power]

This is the type of thinking that lead to A. Escobar being your starting SS.

I have no problem with Escobar being our starting SS.

 

I never said we shouldn't trade Lawrie, just that we shouldn't if we don't need to. He's valuable, not expendable. I don't know that we would need to trade him to get Greinke.

I have a massive problem with Escobar being our SS. Maybe it was just my mancrush on Hardy and what he "could" provide based on two 20+ HR seasons with a .270-280 average that has me all kinds of upset at Escobar's lack of productivity. I also felt JJ would've been able to stay here with Braun, Weeks, Hart and form a core four of everyday players for the next decade and fill in the gaps around them with the McGehees, Gamels, Cains and Lucroys of the world once Fielder was dealt. That obviously didn't happen.

 

As for Lawrie, I guess my only point is that if Lawrie is what it takes to get Greinke, I would do it. Not saying it will cost Lawrie but if they insisted I wouldn't be adverse to dealing him, with the caveat that Rickie is extended. This team can compete for the NL Central now with a two headed monster at #1 and #2 regardless of whether Prince is here or not. Those windows don't stay open forever and the opportunity to get an ace shouldn't be wasted in my opinion.

 

[TheCrew]

Aren't there a number of questions on whether Lawrie will even stick at 2b?

 

If that's the case, it shouldn't matter whether or not Weeks is extended. If a package centered around Lawrie can land Greinke, I say go for it.

 

Greinke - Yo - Wolf as the top 3 would be pretty darn good. Narv/Parra/Cappy could be the #5 and a FA signing could be the #4 - I'd like Pavano personally, but I wouldn't mind if they brought Bush back either..... or they could take a risk on a guy like Webb and if he bounces back, they'd easily have the best rotation in the league.

[RockCoCougars]

This is the type of thinking that lead to A. Escobar being your starting SS. I for one was never in the trade JJ camp.

 

Nor was I. I think one thing that fans really underrated was Hardy's defense. In my view, he was the best defensive Brewers shortstop since Yount. He didn't make a lot of highlight reel plays, but he made almost every play that he should have with some great ones thrown in. Everyone had Escobar pegged in as the next Ozzie Smith, but it wasn't like the Brewers were replacing a subpar Jose K. at short or anything. Instead of Ozzie Smith, they got Royce Clayton (the Brewers' version). Once they made the rash moves in giving Hall away for nothing while paying his salary and sending Hardy down to the minors (bush league in my view), they made their bed. Now they have to lie in it, and hope that Escobar gets everything together.

[TooLiveBrew]

it shouldn't matter whether or not Weeks is extended. If a package centered around Lawrie can land Greinke, I say go for it.

 

I know you meant this relative to Lawrie, but I think this statement works as a standalone, honestly. Weeks should have little or nothing to do with whether or not you acquire Greinke. There are always other methods to replace the starting second baseman; they tend to not be too expensive on the FA market.

[Warning Track Power]

There are always other methods to replace the starting second baseman; they tend to not be too expensive on the FA market.

Replacing 2B that can hit 30 HR, drive in 80+ runs, steal 20 bases and have an OBP in the high .300s like Weeks tend to be quite expensive on the FA market.

 

 

[RockCoCougars]

There are always other methods to replace the starting second baseman; they tend to not be too expensive on the FA market.

 

Ronnie Belliard?

[paul253]

Eric Farris could always be an option as a year long stop gap. He'll be in Triple A next season. Weeks can play the year out, Farris can play for a year. Gennett or Dykstra should be close to being ready after that. Taylor Green can also play second base. None of them will match Weeks offensively, but second base doesn't need to be a premium offensive position. Beside, if Lawrie is traded, I'm sure Milwaukee will be able to find the money to resign Weeks.

[barbados73]

I hope this is not true otherwise we are wasting our time talking about Grienke.

 

"It's believed the Brewers were on Greinke's no-trade list last year, but the pitcher hasn't yet delivered his new list to the Royals"

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/14312978/royals-greinke-dbacks-upton-hot-topic-in-first-week-of-meetings

[TheCrew]

Replacing 2B that can hit 30 HR, drive in 80+ runs, steal 20 bases and have an OBP in the high .300s like Weeks tend to be quite expensive on the FA market.

Sure is - but if Weeks leaves, he leaves. The point is that trading a prospect who many believe isn't expected to stick at 2b has no bearing on whether or not Weeks stays. If anything, making the team more competitive (which Greinke would do) might give him more incentive to stay.

[TheCrew]

I hope this is not true otherwise we are wasting our time talking about Grienke.

 

"It's believed the Brewers were on Greinke's no-trade list last year, but the pitcher hasn't yet delivered his new list to the Royals"

 

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/14312978/royals-greinke-dbacks-upton-hot-topic-in-first-week-of-meetings

If that is true, it just makes me wonder if there is something going on with ownership/organization/management/etc. that keeps players from wanting to come here - Melvin revealed that Halladay blocked a trade to come here and many other pitchers have listed Milwaukee as a no-trade team............. Just makes me wonder.

[colbyjack]

Halladay didn't want to come to Milwaukee because he made it clear he preferred to go to a team that had their spring training facilities in Florida.

[Oldcity]

Bah. I can't say I'm surprised that he'd block Milwaukee, but I was sure hoping that he'd block bigger market teams based on what's been reported. I suppose if they worked out a deal and had a chance to talk to him, he might be convinced to waive it.

[greeg35]

Maybe I'm overvaluing our own prospects or overvaluing what we could get for Fielder; but I'd much rather work out a 3 team deal involving Fielder and throw the prospects we get as a result of that to the Royals for Greinke. I'm just not keen on giving up Lawrie in the face of losing what I consider our two best hitters (Fielder, Weeks) with no other obvious replacements in the minors. If we extend Weeks, I'm more open to trading Lawrie.

Furthermore, I am loath to give up Jeffress, Rogers, and/or Odorizzi when we've been struggling to develop our own young, talented, cost controlled pitching for so long and we finally have some nearing the top of the system. Yes, young pitching is risky; which is why I think it is of the utmost importance to hold on to as many possibilities as you can and throw numbers at the problem hoping one or more will stick. Otherwise we are stuck in two years plugging holes with whatever we can afford in free agent pitching again. I'd rather not go back there...ever.

This is assuming we will not be on Greinke's no-trade; which at this point I'm going to assume we are and give up on hoping for this.

[crewcrazy]

Bah. I can't say I'm surprised that he'd block Milwaukee, but I was sure hoping that he'd block bigger market teams based on what's been reported. I suppose if they worked out a deal and had a chance to talk to him, he might be convinced to waive it.

New York and Boston were also reportedly on that list last year, if I remember correctly. That doesn't really surprise me, either, given his past battles with anxiety and depression. He seems like a guy that wouldn't like living in the limelight, but also doesn't want to play for a losing team his entire career. For that reason, I think the possibility of Texas makes sense -- they're a large-market team without the large-market mentality when it comes to baseball.

 

Seeing Greinke pitch for the Brewers would obviously be fun to watch for the next couple years, but I can't get over the feeling that trading for Greinke would be putting all the eggs in the 2011 basket. You're not going to trade for Greinke if you're going to trade Prince Fielder, in my opinion. If you still trade Prince after dealing for Greinke, you're right back to square one in terms of the playoff picture, but also worse off in a few years when neither is playing for your team anymore.

[dlk9s]

Halladay didn't want to come to Milwaukee because he made it clear he preferred to go to a team that had their spring training facilities in Florida.

Also, players likely have Milwaukee on a no-trade list because, frankly, it's Milwaukee. It's not like our fine city has the reputation of being the coolest, most beautiful, most happening place in the world. Plus, because of the weather, most players wouldn't choose to make it their year-round residence. I mean, I like Milwaukee (though it hasn't been my permanent residence for 12 years) and many people do like it once they get there, but right or wrong, it's not typically thought of as the destination of choice for young, rich athletes.

[Invader3K]

Yeah...it's kind of depressing to think about, honestly. Along with Attanasio's talk of negotiating with players, who then they put Milwaukee on their no trade lists once they sign with another team...it all just emphasizes how important it is for the Brewers to develop from within. Melvin's hands are basically tied when it comes to making a big trade or free agent signing most of the time.

[Oldcity]

It's not like players need to stay here year-round. It's different than, say, the NBA, where players need to live here during the winter.

[TooLiveBrew]

Seeing Greinke pitch for the Brewers would obviously be fun to watch for the next couple years, but I can't get over the feeling that trading for Greinke would be putting all the eggs in the 2011 basket.

 

I think if I'm Doug Melvin right now, I'm all about putting all my eggs in the 2011 basket. I want to have a job in 2012. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Invader3K]

Seeing Greinke pitch for the Brewers would obviously be fun to watch for the next couple years, but I can't get over the feeling that trading for Greinke would be putting all the eggs in the 2011 basket.

 

I think if I'm Doug Melvin right now, I'm all about putting all my eggs in the 2011 basket. I want to have a job in 2012. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

Doesn't he technically have two years left on his contract? But yeah, I get that he would probably be fired if they miss the playoffs again.