Let's talk Hoffman

[TheCrew07]

I cannot beleive anyone wants this team to pack it in this early. Why on Earth would anyone want to watch a bunch of crappy players going through the motions.

You mean like under performing veterans riding out a paycheck into the sunset? People are worried that players like Braddock and Axford who are clearly superior will be sent back to the minors, or a player like Lucroy will ride the pine playing 1 or 2 times a week while the organization chases extra wins.

 

I've been through these arguments literally 100s of times so I'll keep this short. I personally don't believe the Brewers will ever be in a position where they can "go for it" or "win at all costs". Macha didn't play Gamel last season because McGehee was productive out of the box and Macha needs to win now, Parra isn't in the rotation because Macha thinks Narveson is a better now. Macha rode Gallardo all last season because he had to win now. The problem with decisions like that are the future consequences that in most cases aren't readily apparent today... If Gamel turns out to be anything we've already burned a year of his service time that we'll have to buy back, it was completely unnecessary to waste his service time in that manner. I don't think it makes sense to burn up most of Lucroy's first year playing 1 or 2 times a week. Is Yo one of those special pitchers than can handle a massive increase in workload or has Macha already negatively impacted his career?

 

The same is true of rental player deals, how do they help us build towards the future in any way? I mean seriously, Sabathia is the poster example of this. The Brewers were able to generate more revenue, which they spent in the poorest way possible, to take a step backwards on the field. Then Melvin recycles the exact same ideas this season with even worse results thus far. We'd be better served as an organization constantly trying to build towards a World Series than just trying to be good enough to get into the post season. It's 2 completely different mindsets.

 

I'm not sure why winning and prospect development can't go hand in hand in Milwaukee? If you have a rookie on the roster expect to deal with the ups and downs, it's part of the process. Granted our pitching situation makes it more difficult as every mistake becomes magnified, but we're always going to have to play young players, that's just the way it is. When a season is going as poorly as this one has, I'd much rather watch a Cain, Escobar, Braddock, Axford, maybe a Rivas or Rogers than watch Edmonds, Counsell, Hoffman, Hawkins, and so on. If I'm going to lose, I'd rather lose with young players building towards the future than with old players trying to eek out a couple of extra wins this season.

[sheethead]

Funny how the talk Hoffman thread turned into a pack it in and call it a season thread. Not that I am trying to shut this topic down, but I am feeding off the irony.

[joepepsi]

If every team gave up on June 1st because they had a losing record baseball would have very few good games past June 1st.

It's not just that we have a losing record, it's that we have the 6th worst record in baseball. If we want to make the playoffs, we have to pass every team except the D'Backs and Astros. The last time a team came back from 10 under in June to make the playoffs was the 2005 Astros, but they were missing Berkman for the entire month of April and they also had Clemens, Petitte and Oswalt at the top of their rotation. Three pitchers that finished the season with ERAs under 3 (Clemens finished under 2). We're going to have one pitcher do that and he's not as good as those guys because Gallardo is barely averaging over 6 innings a start while they were all over 6.5 and pushing 7.

 

We have 37 games left until the all-star break, 60% of those games are against teams over .500. I have absolutely no problem with them giving up now. In fact I'd prefer it.

The Rockies last year were 18-28 on May 27th, 14 games behind in their division. Then they won 12 games in a row from June 4-14. It's not unthinkable the Brewers could do this.

[Invader3K]

I'm not ready to completely throw in the towel on the season. Like others have said, there is a lot of baseball left to be played. Turnarounds have happened before to losing teams, and it could happen to the Brewers.

 

That said, do I think hoping for such a change is a good strategy? No. I would hope that Doug Melvin and his advisers would very soon start to look around the league for potential trades that could bolster the team beyond 2010.

 

As far as Hoffman, if he struggles in a couple more outings, I hope he is honest with himself and doesn't try to play out the string this season, just making people reluctantly remember what he once was.

[sheethead]

Then they won 12 games in a row from June 4-14. It's not unthinkable the Brewers could do this.

 

Not that it matters, but I believe it to be completely unthinkable for this to happen.

[Beast Light]

Then they won 12 games in a row from June 4-14. It's not unthinkable the Brewers could do this.

 

Not that it matters, but I believe it to be completely unthinkable for this to happen.

I agree.

 

It seems that many on this board are in denial. What is it going to take for people to realize that this is just a bad team? Do people really think that this team can go 20 games over .500 for the rest of the way? The pitching is bad and it has been bad since the second two thirds of last season.

 

Before the season started, I figured that this team would win 78-80 games. That is where many experts had them as well. Its not like this Brewers team is a sleeping monster that was predicted to win 90+ games.

 

 

[PeaveyFury]

Let's move this back to talking about Hoffman, please. We've got plenty of threads discussing the state of the Brewers, their chances the remainder of the year, etc.

[trwi7]

Let's move this back to talking about Hoffman, please.

Okay. Axford gave up a run. Time to move Hoffman back to the closer's role imo. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[logan82]

If Hoffman was younger and had options I have to believe he would have already been sent down.

[tigerbrew]

I wonder if anyone has suggest to Hoffman about retiring now the same way Ken Griffey Jr did his. Retiring with a lot of class and respect from everyone, a legacy and with HOF beckoning. This could be a nice way to retire for Hoffman.

[jeffy]

If Hoffman was younger and had options I have to believe he would have already been sent down.

What does the number 2 in the "options" column for Hoffman mean here:

http://www.brewerfan.net/ViewFortyManRoster.do?teamId=1

[naivin]

I wonder if anyone has suggest to Hoffman about retiring now the same way Ken Griffey Jr did his. Retiring with a lot of class and respect from everyone, a legacy and with HOF beckoning. This could be a nice way to retire for Hoffman.

By all accounts, Trevor believes his problems are correctable. It seems that Brewer coaching staff agrees with this as well. Pretty sure he isn't going to retire (and walk away from a good chunk of change) if he thinks he just need to work through some difficulties to be able to pitch effectively again.

[jeffy]

I don't think it would just be the money, if it is correctable then he might be walking away from the opportunity to be traded to a contender next month. The best scenario would be he figures it out and gets traded to, say, SD and ends his career in a pennant race there.

[sheethead]

Let's move this back to talking about Hoffman, please.

Okay. Axford gave up a run. Time to move Hoffman back to the closer's role imo. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

What's nice about Axford is when he struggles, he gives up one run. When Hoffman struggles he gives up three or more.

[TheCrew07]

If Hoffman was younger and had options I have to believe he would have already been sent down.

What does the number 2 in the "options" column for Hoffman mean here:

http://www.brewerfan.net/ViewFortyManRoster.do?teamId=1

Options don't mean anything for a player with Hoffman's service time, he could refuse assignment like Bill Hall last season.

[Roscoe Chill]

Hoffman isn't going anywhere. In August/September when he STILL hasn't hit 600 saves, and the Brewers are challenging the Pirates and Astros for the cellar of the NL Central, he'll hit that mark even if it takes him a dozen tries to get there. And it will be marketed as some kind of big deal, even though it is really pathetic that it will have taken so long and so many tries. In actuality most of the fans will have already moved on to not caring, and they won't buy that it's a big deal anyway.

[TabbertBB]

Please, please, someone tell me what is so "magic" about 600 saves?

This is nothing but a joke.

[sheethead]

And it will be marketed as some kind of big deal, even though it is really pathetic that it will have taken so long and so many tries.

 

I would hope the Brewers marketing department already realizes the fans could care less about Hoffman hitting 600 saves. If they don't know yet, they are not doing their job.

[Funketown]

Please, please, someone tell me what is so "magic" about 600 saves?

This is nothing but a joke.

I don't know, and I don't think many other fans have a clue. If anybody thinks that Hoffman getting 600 on a team that wins 70 games will be more profitable than Hoffman not getting 600 on a team that wins 75 games, I'd be surprised. Fans do not care about an insignificant milestone for a struggling player who has only been with the team for 1.3 seasons. They might have cared if that were the situation for either Yount or Molitor, and perhaps even in the future with Braun.

 

If anyone thinks this solidifies Hoffman's position as the greatest closer (or even reliever) of all time, they should think again. Rivera has been so much more dominant (2.03 ERA, .4 HR/9, 4.21:1 K/BB for Rivera vs. 2.87 ERA, .8 HR/9, 3.73:1 K/BB for Hoffman) than Hoffman over the course of his career that there should be no debate.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't know, what's so magical about 500 HR or 3,000 hits? People love big, round numbers for counting stats. I really don't see the harm in finding the dozen or so chances along the way it'll likely take for him to get those last four saves in what I consider a lost season at this point. If the team were contending, I'd be the first one in line to say it'd be ludicrous to put his personal pursuit ahead of the team. Since that isn't the case, I don't see the harm in helping a HoFer run down a pretty counting stat.

[sheethead]

TooLive, stop messing with the Brewers marketing department http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Funketown]

I don't know, what's so magical about 500 HR or 3,000 hits? People love big, round numbers for counting stats. I really don't see the harm in finding the dozen or so chances along the way it'll likely take for him to get those last four saves in what I consider a lost season at this point. If the team were contending, I'd be the first one in line to say it'd be ludicrous to put his personal pursuit ahead of the team. Since that isn't the case, I don't see the harm in helping a HoFer run down a pretty counting stat.

My concern is that it will alienate an already frustrated fan base. At this point, everybody knows that putting Hoffman out in the 9th inning is not a good decision. If fans don't care about 600, or they value a few additional (being extremely generous, going from 70 to 75) wins, then there is reason to believe that letting Hoffman get his 600th could cost this team a pretty significant amount of money in both the short and long term.

 

And from a business standpoint, I don't think going from 70 to 75 wins is pointless. Fans largely determine how much they pay attention to the next season (and in turn, spend on that next season) based on how good they think the team will be next year. To the average fan, the number of games the team won the previous season is a significant factor in determining how good they think the team will be in the upcoming season.

 

Maybe Hoffman's 600th is worth something (independent of team earnings) to Attanasio. That's not unreasonable to believe, as we've certainly owners who make decisions that are clearly utility maximizing, rather than profit maximizing. However, I think that the cost of letting Hoffman get that 600th save is quite large, and Attanasio will not be willing to lose that much revenue in order to enjoy watching Hoffman get #600 as a Brewer.

[Tbadder]

Yeah, I gotta agree I'm totally bored with 500 dingers and 3000 hits--have been for some time, ho-hum. Marketing is never important. Baseball statistics as a matter of historical record however have longer legs. If fans can't wrap their heads around 600 saves then they should do what they're best at--wrapping their hands around a Pabst.

P.S. the cost to a team that has no hope is virtually negligible.

[TabbertBB]

I could argue that 3000 hits is a big deal. Maybe 500 Home Runs could be a big deal. But nobody has 600 saves, so it is not like he is joing a "club". Be happy he got 500 saves and live with it.

Are we going to see if Brett Favre is at 394 games started in a row, that they are going to say "But, Brett you must play another season to start 400 games in a row?"

 

p.s. I think it is funny that Tuesday night, he wasn't even going to get a save. Not many saves are earned in the 7th inning.

[Tbadder]

Hmmmm...so someone does something that's never been done in the history of baseball and we should ignore that? I'm gonna be super bored with the first guy to reach 900 homers.