Let's talk Hoffman

[TooLiveBrew]

Hoffman wasn't good last night, even though he wasn't as bad as his line. Even without the "double" by Cantu, he still gave up a 2B, 1B, & BB. Granted, his K of Uggla would have been the third out of the inning had Hart caught the bloop that became a double, but still -- surrendering a (well-hit) double & walk isn't exactly showing signs of progress.

 

I guess my main concern is that Macha decided to use him in a high-leverage situation, and it wound up costing the team the game. It really shouldn't be that hard, let him come in for any 3-run lead save opportunities to get him to 600, and then you don't have to worry all that much about how Hoffman is used for the rest of the season.

[brewmann04]

The problem is who does Macha go to in the Pen if he can't use Hoffman or Suppan in those type of Situations.

[TooLiveBrew]

In a tied game in the 7th inning? I would hope Braddock, Axford, Coffey, & Villanueva would get used before our two worst RPs

[jeffy]

You left out Loe and Parra.

[NievesNoNO]

brewmann04[/b]]The problem is who does Macha go to in the Pen if he can't use Hoffman or Suppan in those type of Situations.

There are other options, but if you flat out feel a pitcher can't be used in ANY meaningful situation then they don't belong on the team. That's pretty much the case with Hoffman right now and has been for the entire season. It just really bothers me to waste roster spots. I get the money aspect and it makes you look a bit foolish as the GM or owner, but how much more foolish do you look to keep running these guys out there. If they're concerned about the money, they might consider how much they're losing at the gate when throwing these guys out there costs us wins. It'd be one thing if they were the best options, but they are not. I think my rant is done for the day now. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TheCrew07]

In a tied game in the 7th inning? I would hope Braddock, Axford, Coffey, & Villanueva would get used before our two worst RPs

Ding! Ding! Ding! And what do we have for our winner?

[Thurston Fluff]

It really shouldn't be that hard, let him come in for any 3-run lead save opportunities to get him to 600, and then you don't have to worry all that much about how Hoffman is used for the rest of the season.

 

First of all he would have blown a three run save last night and has blown such leads in the past. Second, other than his family and friends, who gives a rats behind if he does get to the 600 save mark? If he isn't good enough to close he should not be in there in a save situation period. His 600 saves comes in a distant second in importance to me vs a win for the brewers. Personal stats are fine as a bi-product of good play but are terrible if they become the priority in who gets to play when. At this point he simply isn't good enough to be a 600 save guy thus shouldn't get there.

 

 

There are other options, but if you flat out feel a pitcher can't be used in ANY meaningful situation then they don't belong on the team. That's pretty much the case with Hoffman right now and has been for the entire season.

 

Every roster has one like that on the staff. Our problem is we have more than one. That said if there are more than one like that I would hope it's someone who has some potential down the road. At this point we are wasting two roster spots one two old guys who will not be in the league next year.

[Invader3K]

Ding! Ding! Ding! And what do we have for our winner?

5th place in the NL Central? Maybe 4th if the options are explored?

[DuWayne Steurer]

It's one thing to have one pitcher you can't use in a high leverage situation ever. That's already a handicap. But 2? You're basically saying "we've got a 23 man roster unless we're getting our butts kicked, or we're up by 8 runs".

 

And with an 8 run lead, I don't necessarily feel like Supp and Hoff would hold that down if given a chance.

[TooLiveBrew]

First of all he would have blown a three run save last night and has blown such leads in the past. Second, other than his family and friends, who gives a rats behind if he does get to the 600 save mark? If he isn't good enough to close he should not be in there in a save situation period. His 600 saves comes in a distant second in importance to me vs a win for the brewers. Personal stats are fine as a bi-product of good play but are terrible if they become the priority in who gets to play when. At this point he simply isn't good enough to be a 600 save guy thus shouldn't get there.

 

I don't think this team will make the postseason this year, so I don't mind letting a Hall of Famer chase down a counting stat. I don't want this team's goal to be chasing win #81 or 83. While Hoffman has certainly blown 3-run leads, I would much rather see him used with 3-run save opportunities than in the 7th inning of a tied game. He's also had outings where he hasn't given up any runs, or three runs, so it's something I think the Brewers can facilitate & just get out of the way. Once he's there, I think you can release the guy if need be, or just bury him in the 'pen a la Suppan.

 

He's already being used in meaningful innings ahead of better options, so to me if he's chasing those four remaining saves, at least there's some point to it. The useful RPs can still find plenty of work, unfortunately, this season, given how bad the starting pitching has been.

[jeffy]

It's one thing to have one pitcher you can't use in a high leverage situation ever.

If that is where Hoffman is, it would seem that they'd be better off releasing him than Suppan, since Suppan can pitch multiple innings. OTOH, the fans don't seem to hate Hoffman (yet).

[Roderick]

"The chase for 600 saves" will draw a lot more fans than "The chase for 70 wins".

How many relatives does he have?

 

I am the least bit interested in going to a Brewer game to watch Hoffman. Knowing there is a better chance of watching Axford and Braddock would be more compelling to buy tickets to me.

 

I would think differently if Hoffman had gotten more of those lifetime saves with the Brewers, but to me he is just a hired gun.

[Thurston Fluff]

I don't think this team will make the postseason this year, so I don't mind letting a Hall of Famer chase down a counting stat. I don't want this team's goal to be chasing win #81 or 83.

 

While that is a perfectly fine attitude to have as a fan I would not want the decision makers thinking that way. If every team gave up on June 1st because they had a losing record baseball would have very few good games past June 1st. Last time I saw a Brewers team do that was in 02. No need to mention how painful that team was to watch. No amount of personal milestones could make me watch that team play let alone one obtained by a guy who is not worthy of playing anymore.

Teams can and have come back from 10 games below .500 and at least competed for a playoff birth in September. Even if they don't I disagree with the idea that a team ever gives up chasing an extra win or two just so an individual can achieve a milestone he doesn't deserve. I want, nay demand, my team plays hard and gets every win it can until the last game. When they quit playing to win I quit watching. No amount of individual milestones would entice me to watch.

[brewmann04]

The problem is Coffey had a thumb Problem and have to believe they are trying to be carefull with Braddock at this point and not overwork him. I agree about the wasted space on the roster and maybe when a healthy Hawkins and Riske will see some changes.

But again can't blame Macha when most of his Starters can't go into the 6th or 7th for that matter.

[Bombers]

when a healthy Hawkins and Riske return we will see some changes

When this happens, the clearing of room on the 25 man better be Suppan and Hoffman. If either Braddock or Axford get sent down, I will be one upset season ticket holder.

[sheethead]

Roll up the banner, gather up the Trevor Time graphics and Hell's Bells single, put them all in a dumpster and call up Waste Management. The jig is up, nobody wants to see any more of this train wreck.

 

I am thinking we will not see any more of LaTroy Hawkins this year, and possibly not next year either. He just very well may complete the quiniela of players Melvin has paid a ton of money to complete their career as a Brewer.

[TooLiveBrew]

Teams can and have come back from 10 games below .500 and at least competed for a playoff birth in September.

 

Yes, but I'd be willing to bet the teams that have done this had more starting pitching than the Brewers do now. I don't think the team won't contend because their record thus far is a disaster. I think they won't contend because the record is a disaster & they don't have the horses to spot the rest of the league 10 games or so. This was a team that needed to be lucky (imo) to get into the playoffs this season, and they've been just the opposite of lucky so far.

[jeffy]

[quote name=Roderick wrote: I would think differently if Hoffman had gotten more of those lifetime saves with the Brewers, but to me he is just a hired gun.[/b]http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/0608/backwardgImage1.jpg

[trwi7]

Backupcatchers]If every team gave up on June 1st because they had a losing record baseball would have very few good games past June 1st.

It's not just that we have a losing record, it's that we have the 6th worst record in baseball. If we want to make the playoffs, we have to pass every team except the D'Backs and Astros. The last time a team came back from 10 under in June to make the playoffs was the 2005 Astros, but they were missing Berkman for the entire month of April and they also had Clemens, Petitte and Oswalt at the top of their rotation. Three pitchers that finished the season with ERAs under 3 (Clemens finished under 2). We're going to have one pitcher do that and he's not as good as those guys because Gallardo is barely averaging over 6 innings a start while they were all over 6.5 and pushing 7.

 

We have 37 games left until the all-star break, 60% of those games are against teams over .500. I have absolutely no problem with them giving up now. In fact I'd prefer it.

[BrewCrewForever]

I have absolutely no problem with them giving up now. In fact I'd prefer it.

Same here. Trade away any of the vets that don't have futures on this team for whatever you can get for them. But mainly, trade Prince and get a couple of young pitchers that are or are close to big league ready. Bring up Gamel and Butler when they are ready, heck even Rogers if he has a few good starts at AAA. Let's get this team ready for 2011 and 2012. If we are not going to contend, I would much rather watch on TV and go to Miller Park and see youth then what they are mostly trotting out there now.

[naivin]

We have 37 games left until the all-star break, 60% of those games are against teams over .500. I have absolutely no problem with them giving up now. In fact I'd prefer it.

Agreed. Currently, KC, CLE, SEA, PIT, and ARI have records that are the same or within a game or two of the Brewers. Raise your hand if you think any of those teams are capable of competing for anything this year. The sooner the Brewers acknowledge they have more in common with those teams then they do the Cardinals, Phillies, Dodegers, etc., the better off they are going to be, the more they can get in return for the players they trade away (by doing so sooner), and the better job they can do preparing for next season and beyond.

[Thurston Fluff]

We have 37 games left until the all-star break, 60% of those games are against teams over .500. I have absolutely no problem with them giving up now. In fact I'd prefer it.

 

I cannot beleive anyone wants this team to pack it in this early. Why on Earth would anyone want to watch a bunch of crappy players going through the motions. That will happen if those in charge decide to quite on June 1st. Then we get 4 months of 2002 play from here on out. If anyone doesn't have a problem with that needs to check their sanity. While not likely they will turn it around to the level necessary to compete for a playoff run it should most certainly be their mindset until the numbers show it's impossible. Otherwise every season they start out slow or some of their players don't play up to potential the players will start packing it in on June 1st. Why not after all when fans prefer they did anyway?

 

The difference between 81 wins and 61 is the difference of 20 days where I feel a little better and the sun shines a little brighter even though I know it's only temporary. It's also the difference between a team close to contention and one that needs to start over and is five years away. This team is in transition no doubt but what happens during that transition is as important to how quickly this team's fortunes turn, and which direction, as is the final year of a team's run. I certainly don't want player like Escobar learning the valuable lesson of packing it in by June if things aren't' going our way. How to deal with a bad situation is something that can have a positive or negative effect in the future. All of whilom depends on how it's handled now. I just don't see how quitting as a team teaches the right way to handle tough situations.

[brewmann04]

I guess alot of us have watched this team and really can't take anything postive from this team.

[Thurston Fluff]

You must have watched enough baseball to know most players/teams end up close to their norms by year's end. This team is about a 500 level team thus has underperformed so far. If they follow the normal trend by year's end they will be about what they always have been thus there is a likely surge in production from the very people who are so seriously under performing now. If, by some chance Hoffman, Hawkins and Davis all hit the wall in the same year and others don't meet expectations then, yes, it will be a bad year. The chances of everyone being below career norms all season are more remote than the team staying as bad as it currently is. I fully expect an uptick in performance from some of the very same guys who have failed so far to coincide with the development of some of the younger guys. Thus I expect better results as we go forward. I certainly don't expect, or want, them to quite under any circumstances on June 1st.

[trwi7]

I cannot beleive anyone wants this team to pack it in this early.

 

How early is it? We're basically 1/3 of the way through the season. To finish with 85 wins (which still wouldn't get us into the playoffs most likely) we would have to finish with a 64-46 record or a 94 win pace. Do you see this team winning at that pace for 2/3 of a season? I sure as hell don't.

 

Why on Earth would anyone want to watch a bunch of crappy players going through the motions.

 

Why does it have to be a bunch of crappy players? Why can't it be this?

 

Outfield: Braun/Gomez/Cain (Edmonds and Hart traded)

Infield: McGehee/Escobar/Weeks/??? if Fielder is traded

Catcher: Kottaras/Lucroy

 

Still a bunch of young guys. Maybe they're crappy to start, but so what? Let them start everyday in a season that doesn't matter win/loss wise and let them get their feet wet in the majors.

 

Then you would still have Axford, Braddock, Villanueva, Coffey and maybe Estrada if you call them back up. Some young guys with little MLB experience getting their feet wet.

 

Put Parra back in the rotation with Gallardo and Narveson. Hopefully Bush and Davis pitch better so you could possibly get something for them at the deadline. I doubt Wolf will be traded since we overpaid him and no one will take his contract. And I didn't even bring up Capuano until now. He definitely wouldn't be going through the motions even if he was crappy.

 

So you could watch Braun, Gomez, Cain, McGehee, Escobar, Weeks, Kottaras, Lucroy, Axford, Braddock, Villanueva, Estrada, Gallardo, Parra, Capuano and Narveson everyday. That's 16 of the 25 that would be excited to watch and wouldn't just be "crappy players going through the motions." They would know they have to impress to stay on the roster.

 

If anyone doesn't have a problem with that needs to check their sanity.

 

What? I'd rather watch a bunch of young guys and lose 100 games than fight tooth and nail with a bunch of veterans for that ever elusive 81st win, which we won't get close to. I have no desire to watch a bunch of veterans try to win as many games as possible but still suck.

 

The difference between 81 wins and 61 is the difference of 20 days where I feel a little better and the sun shines a little brighter even though I know it's only temporary.

 

So you feel a little better temporarily for 20 days. In the end you still have the same result. No playoffs for your favorite team. I'd be more interested in watching young guys play in the majors than winning 20 more games with vets who are on the decline.

 

It's also the difference between a team close to contention and one that needs to start over and is five years away.

 

So last year, we won 80 games and were close to contention. We go and supposedly improve our pitching staff in the offseason, so why aren't we contenders now? And no, it doesn't have to take five years either.

 

All of whilom depends on how it's handled now. I just don't see how quitting as a team teaches the right way to handle tough situations.

 

IT'S NOT QUITTING! Quitting means packing it in and not trying. Trading Prince or Hart doesn't mean you're quitting. It means that you realize it's extremely unlikely that you're going to win anything this year and also that it's extremely unlikely that Prince signs an extension and extremely unlikely that Hart is part of the long term future of this franchise. So you trade them now for guys who can help in the future while telling the guys that are still on the team we want you to go out and still try hard and try your best to win games. They may not win, but like I said, I'd much rather watch a bunch of young guys lose than a bunch of veterans.