Let's talk Hoffman

[pitchleague]

Last season, Hoffman pitched like the great reliever he always has been.

 

Which is why Melvin should have counted his blessings for last year and moved on.

 

Nobody could have predicted this.

 

I absolutely did predict this. But its like predicting the kid who's jumping over the fire will eventually get burned, so I can't take full credit.

Link please?

 

(edit: sorry, not baiting here. Just couldn't finish my statement as I had to run an errand and I accidentally pushed the post button.)

 

I think most of us predicted that Hoffman would have an off year, or at least not as great as last season. But an utter and complete collapse? Into the 3rd week in May???? Still no improvement???? I don't buy that for a second. Even the writers and scribes that over the winter, stated that Melvin overpaid for another year of Hoffman are sitting there puzzled that he has been THIS terrible.

[owbc]

I still think it was the right move to keep him in at closer to this point. He earned the benefit of the doubt and he had shown improvement in his last few outings.

 

At this point, he should be moved to a different role in the bullpen, but could earn the closers role back with a few good outings in a row.

[Beast Light]

Last season, Hoffman pitched like the great reliever he always has been. Holding on to him and resigning him is a move that I won't fault Melvin for. Nobody could have predicted this. Sure, we could predict a modest decline, but not a complete collapse. This is just bad luck. But regardless, Hoffman needs to be removed from the closers role because enough is enough.

I can't believe how much "bad luck" this team has. No one is bad and no mistakes are made ..the Brewers just have a lot of "bad luck".

 

 

[rluzinski]

It's so funny because there are MANY baseball fans that claim every player is done and should be DFA's if they struggle for a week. When, inevitably, they are right once in awhile, they act like they hold the key to performance analysis. Meanwhile, if they were in charge of the baseball team, there would be 5 players left on the 25 man roster, since they showed everyone else the door by June.

[Funketown]

It's so funny because there are MANY baseball fans that claim every player is done and should be DFA's if they struggle for a week. When, inevitably, they are right once in awhile, they act like they hold the key to performance analysis. Meanwhile, if they were in charge of the baseball team, there would be 5 players left on the 25 man roster, since they showed everyone else the door by June.

No, because they would have signed the right players in the first place. Besides, after DFA'ing every player there would be plenty of cheap, available productive players waiting to sign a $400K deal and contribute to a big league club.

[Postseason2006]

It's hard to argue with a guy who is 42 and while his stats looked great last year, but he avoided trouble many times last year with a lot of line drive outs and deep fly balls. I can remember countless games he was the benefit of a lot of liners that were slugged right at his teammates.

[TheCrew07]

It's so funny because there are MANY baseball fans that claim every player is done and should be DFA's if they struggle for a week. When, inevitably, they are right once in awhile, they act like they hold the key to performance analysis. Meanwhile, if they were in charge of the baseball team, there would be 5 players left on the 25 man roster, since they showed everyone else the door by June.

Ya that's not a gross over exaggeration or anything... what comes next? A sarcastic post about how too many people whine about a soft tossing control pitcher working over the crew? That's only been in every other game thread all year... See, I can cleverly make over exaggerations too!

 

There were plenty of people that didn't want Davis signed, a few that didn't want Hoffman resigned or Hawkins signed, but now everyone is unnecessarily piling on... right.

[Buckylovesbeer]

I coach with a guy who swears a Miller Park insider told him after today that Hoffman will - #1 go on the DL tomorrow and #2 perhaps retire all in the next 48 hours. Apparently TH said today that he has been fighting an injury for the last 30+ days.

 

Dont know if its true, it sounds like someone hoping.....but we will see.

[PeaveyFury]

Dont know if its true, it sounds like someone hoping.....but we will see.

 

Yeah, the one major red flag to the info is that if he'd been fighting an injury, why would he retire? The injury would explain his ineffectiveness. And if the injury was serious enough to force retirement, I can't believe he'd have been able to pitch through it for a month.

[hawing]

Plus if you could possibly help it, why would you want your last career appearance to be like Tuesday's? (yeah, an injury could be that bad, but as Peavey said, why would he have pitched through it for a month and a half?)

[Team Canada]

Dont know if its true, it sounds like someone hoping.....but we will see.

 

Yeah, the one major red flag to the info is that if he'd been fighting an injury, why would he retire? The injury would explain his ineffectiveness.  And if the injury was serious enough to force retirement, I can't believe he'd have been able to pitch through it for a month.

One, I hope it's not an injury because there's been no indication so far that he has any sort of physical problem.  Two, if that were true, fighting an injury for a month+ is incredibly stupid and we must have idiots for managerial/medicine staff.

[rluzinski]

It's so funny because there are MANY baseball fans that claim every player is done and should be DFA's if they struggle for a week. When, inevitably, they are right once in awhile, they act like they hold the key to performance analysis. Meanwhile, if they were in charge of the baseball team, there would be 5 players left on the 25 man roster, since they showed everyone else the door by June.

Ya that's not a gross over exaggeration or anything... what comes next? A sarcastic post about how too many people whine about a soft tossing control pitcher working over the crew? That's only been in every other game thread all year... See, I can cleverly make over exaggerations too!

 

There were plenty of people that didn't want Davis signed, a few that didn't want Hoffman resigned or Hawkins signed, but now everyone is unnecessarily piling on... right.

I have no problem with anyone thinking Hoffman wasn't worth the money. I'm not a big fan of paying relievers big money in general. Davis is getting paid peanuts, so it's hard for me to care, either way.

[tigerbrew]

It's so funny because there are MANY baseball fans that claim every player is done and should be DFA's if they struggle for a week. When, inevitably, they are right once in awhile, they act like they hold the key to performance analysis. Meanwhile, if they were in charge of the baseball team, there would be 5 players left on the 25 man roster, since they showed everyone else the door by June.

This is not funny, it sounds rather insulting and condescending, not to mention over-exaggerating.

 

 

 

 

 

[sbrylski]

It's so funny because there are MANY baseball fans that claim every player is done and should be DFA's if they struggle for a week. When, inevitably, they are right once in awhile, they act like they hold the key to performance analysis. Meanwhile, if they were in charge of the baseball team, there would be 5 players left on the 25 man roster, since they showed everyone else the door by June.

This is not funny, it sounds rather insulting and condescending, not to mention over-exaggerating.

No, it's spot on.

[Invader3K]

I coach with a guy who swears a Miller Park insider told him after today that Hoffman will - #1 go on the DL tomorrow and #2 perhaps retire all in the next 48 hours. Apparently TH said today that he has been fighting an injury for the last 30+ days.

 

Dont know if its true, it sounds like someone hoping.....but we will see.

Sounds more like wishful thinking to me. I find it hard to believe anyone beyond Hoffman's family and Melvin and/or Macha would know if he has plans to retire.

[Funketown]

If Hoffman voluntarily retires doesn't he forfeit his salary for the rest of the year?

 

That, along with the amount of pride on he line, tells me he'll be taking trip to the disabled list sooner than later. Even I don't want to see Hoffman go out like that. Hopefully he goes on a rehab assignment, comes back and pitches decently in a mop-up or 7th inning role.

[naivin]

I guess I'm curious as to how/why he's just "done." While I completely acknowledge the possibility, it just doesn't make complete sense to me. Obviously he is an old dude, but he's less than a year older than he was at the end of last year. There is no noticeable change in his velocity, so it would almost necessarily have to be a command and control issue, coupled with the fact that he doesn't seem to be willing to throw the change up as much as he used to. So the question then becomes is the control issue due to his age, or is it more of a confidence issue (that not throwing the change up would seem to indicate) that can potentially be corrected. If anyone can draw on experience to straighten himself out, I suspect it would be Hoffman. I guess I have a difficult time believing that this is just a case of a guy losing it due to his age, six months removed from a season when he was just fine.

 

The other question I have, is if anyone has seen any stories written relative to his interaction with Rick Peterson. My hope is that they haven't been anywhere near eachother. My fear is that they have. There is no logical reason for a pitching coach (any pitching coach) to be even talking to a guy, let alone tinkering with a guy that has pitched as long, and effectively in a specialist role as Hoffman has. I'm not saying that is the case here, I'm just curious. Trevor Hoffman has been as mentally strong and confident as any pitcher ever throughout his career, and that seems to have completely left him. Why? Is it strictly physical/age?

[JohnBriggs12]

It wasn't so much that they re-signed Hoffman, it was when they did it. It was 2 days after the end of last season that he agreed to terms. That was before they knew what else was out there, or what the market was. It was completely a knee-jerk reaction and not thought out. There's validity to the argument that you don't dump players after a couple rough weeks. There is also validity to not getting carried away with a guy's positive performance that you run out there and set a market price on your own. It was almost as if a guy got a date with a girl who was way above his level, and because the date worked out so well, and he was afraid to "lose her", he called her back the minute he got home to ask her out again. It's foolish.

 

As for now, anytime you commit money to a 42 year old, in any sport, you have to be aware it could blow up and be prepared to cut your losses. It's not April 19th, it's May 19th and Hoffman has an ERA over 13. The White Sox pulled Jenks from his closer role and his ERA is less than half of what Hoffman's is.

 

Melvin's grand plan for this year is in shambles. Hoffman, Hawkins, and Davis were 3/4 of the significant offseason signings. Bringing back Vargas and Gerut were lesser signings but not totally insignificant. All have been abject failures. It's time to admit your mistakes and start the implementation of plan B. That should start with the dumping of Hoffman. He's embarrassing himself and the organization. They also need to dump at least one more reliever, either Vargas or Suppan, to create two more spots in the pen for Braddock and Smith. Davis and Hawkins need to earn their way back with rehab performances worthy of their veteran status. If not, dump them too.

[Invader3K]

I think partly the quick re-signing of Hoffman was a sort of P.R. move. Hoffman was obviously popular last year and the signing basically said, "We're going to try again next year." I'll admit I was fine with the re-signing at the time, but it does seem like they well overpaid for him, given how the market shook out.

 

I'm fine with all your suggested moves. I would probably dump Vargas before Suppan. At least you can put Suppan in garbage time outings to eat innings, and he has been OK-ish as a reliever. Vargas seems to be completely useless.

 

As far as Davis, I wonder if some team would be willing to do a small trade for him. Like maybe a middling A or AA prospect for him. There have to be teams out there that could have a use for him, and he's bound to bounce back from his bad start this season.

[CheezWizHed]

So, can we sign Schmoe? Is he available? http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Personally, I don't think Coco's deal was bad. It wasn't great either... Depends on where you are as a team and where you can spend money.

 

My point was that in not signing Coco, we have had a horrible time closing games, even if you include last year with Hoffman. And spending just about as much money in the mean time (wow, my memory isn't so bad after all).

 

Now, maybe Braddock will come in this year and next and prove me wrong, but I doubt even that would make up for the last 2+...

[Fatter than Joey]

If Hoffman voluntarily retires doesn't he forfeit his salary for the rest of the year?

 

Yes -- He forgoes his salary and the Brewers have the rights to him for a certain amount of time. I believe when Salomon Torres retired, he left $4M on the table.

 

However, if Hoffman is DFA'd and then retires, much like Eric Byrnes, the Brewers would be on the hook for him and his option.

 

Hoffman has most if not all of the leverage here, I'd pretty much kiss that money goodbye.

 

Two, if that were true, fighting an injury for a month+ is incredibly stupid and we must have idiots for managerial/medicine staff.

 

We've been down this road with pitchers pitching when they shouldn't be --- Although, I don't think the injury is anything more than an attempt to save face.

 

The other question I have, is if anyone has seen any stories written relative to his interaction with Rick Peterson. My hope is that they haven't been anywhere near eachother. My fear is that they have.

 

Trevor Hoffman has forgotten more about pitching on the MLB level than Peterson will ever know. I doubt Peterson has had any sort of interaction with Hoffman that would have affected Hoffman's approach. My guess is that Peterson will make observations and suggestions, but if Hoffman listens to them, then that is on Hoffman.

 

It wasn't so much that they re-signed Hoffman, it was when they did it. It was 2 days after the end of last season that he agreed to terms.

 

This was my objection as well -- I suspect it was marketing driven in a large part.

[Invader3K]

It sounded like in Spring Training the coaches and Macha were pretty much just letting Hoffman do his own thing, which is to be expected when you're dealing with a veteran pitcher. I really don't think anyone can blame his woeful season thus far on Macha or Peterson.

[sheethead]

Davis is getting paid peanuts

 

No, McGehee is getting paid peanuts. Davis is getting $5.5 million. And if I was running the team, 2 DFA's so far, but you sure were close with that 20 guess.

 

If the Brewers go down the injury road with Hoffman I will be furious. The transparency will be gagging. Someone needs to man up, whether its Hoffman or Melvin, and end this already. Its pathetic.

 

“I feel prepared and ready to go out there. I’m just not getting it done.”

 

This was my objection as well -- I suspect it was marketing driven in a large part.

 

From a business perspective, there is no doubt in my mind marketing played a huge role in signing Hoffman for this year. The 600 saves banner was likely brainstormed the very next day.

[JonnyLungs]

They also need to dump at least one more reliever, either Vargas or Suppan, to create two more spots in the pen for Braddock and Smith.

Smith may end up being a short term fix but I'm not sure if he is much of a long term solution given his 17 home runs allowed in 64 career ML innings. His 4.11 ERA was fortunate if you ask me (without looking at any advanced metrics).

 

He may be better than some of what we've currently got (and I realize that is the topic at hand here) but if we are ever going to build a decent bullpen, Chris Smith needs to be behind a wall of glass labeled 'Break In Case of Emergency' instead of being a key cog.

[PeaveyFury]

We've been down this road with pitchers pitching when they shouldn't be

 

While that is probably true for an outing or two, I just can't fathom it over an entire month or more, especially with the results he's been getting on the field. If he was mediocre or just a little off, I could buy them overlooking something, but he's been just terrible.